Ultimatums and alcohol

[Microbeans]

I’m hoping you wise lovelies can help give me some perspective as I don’t know what to do.

Married 10yrs but together much longer with DD. DP has always been an excessive drinker - looking back i of course wish I’d bailed much earlier.

He is an alcoholic but would never admit it. Key drinking points

• he is a secretive drinker and always minimises. This has improved over the years but used to find stashes etc in the house. He still lies about it but doesnt hide as much.
  
• doesn’t drink to socialise but to escape or destress so it’s fast and over soon
  
• rarely has one drink and stops but tends to only drink 2-3 days per week and never in the morning or afternoon
  
• he has a tendency to drink spirits and would think nothing of buying a small bottle of spirit and drinking it on his commute home and claiming he stopped for just a glass of wine.
  
• he’s let me down time and time again over the years in terms of not arriving home when he says he will etc
  
• never a violent drunk but obnoxious all the same
  
• to cope i now tend to remove myself and just go to bed when he drinks
  
• I get irrational rage when the snoring hits jet engine level as a result of said drinking
  

I regularly think about putting an end to our marriage - earlier on in the relationship I thought it would improve as he got older and more mature (it has in many ways) but the issue is still there.

He has said he will quit if I ask him but I havent had the courage to ask him yet. I’ve always worried about an ultimatum due to the huge risk he doesn’t follow though and so I’ve needed to be ready to follow through. There is also the issue of whether i would trust him to be sticking to it or hiding it more.

When I weight up a single instance I can easily justify staying for Dd who rarely/never sees any of this. For DD I make the decision to keep the family together.

I also have the massive risk that he goes down hill in the divorce scenario and drinks much more. The guilt would be immense and how would I explain this to DD. I would also then have to trust him be responsible for DD when she visited him and I’m not sure I would.

Right now under the same roof I can turn off the oven when he’s crashed and left it on and can be sure DD is safe. She has a dad and I just hold it all together.

Please can you help me work out what to do? Do I stay in this marriage and focus on the positives (there are some). Or do I give an ultimatum and possible spin us into destruction?

[Microbeans]

Argh sorry it’s so long!

[MikeUniformMike]

Do you want to be with him? Do you think he wants to stop?

[Microbeans]

I don’t think he wants to stop - he would have already. Plus he doesn’t think he has a problem. I don’t want to stay - I dream about being single but the risks always seem too high. It’s not that bad so doing nothing is so easy.

[Isleepinahedgefund]

Most of the points you've listed remind me of my brother. He is a recovering alcoholic, sober for about 8 years now.

The secrecy, the minimising, the lying, drinking spirits on his way home - he's beyond being in control of whether he stops or not. He needs to want to stop, but he's dependent on it so it's not as simple as him bucking up his ideas and stopping.

Alcoholism is not just over consumption of alcohol. It's also a psychological condition which needs its own specialist treatment. This type of alcohol abuse causes permanent changes in the brain too.

The sorry truth is that it will be hard for him to stop. He will not stop if he doesn't want to put in the effort to recover.

You need to think about your daughter, she's relying on you to protect her from this. Whether he's nice or nasty when drunk, it's still affecting her. My brother was not a nasty drunk either, but his alcoholism really affected his step kids in the long run. Fortunately for them their mother left him.

[Microbeans]

Thanks Isleep - glad you DB is sober. can you tell me more about the impact on the kids and what made him get help?

I struggle to see any damage to DD right now (she’s 8) expect for more arguments. While he’s sleeping drunk on the couch right now, she didn’t see him tonight and often doesn’t due to work.

[pointythings]

Your OH is no longer a functioning alcoholic - he is already spiralling. Leaving the oven on because he's crashed out drunk? That's serious stuff.

As your DD gets older, she will start seeing that her father isn't like other fathers - especially as he gets worse and functions less and less. It won't be long. My DDs knew by the time they were 10 and 12 that their dad had an issue with drink.

It took me years to accept it and then deal with it, but when I issued the ultimatum (which was rehab or divorce), I meant it. And when he went back to his old ways - drinking, lying, minimising - I divorced him because he had already used up all his second chances.

You need to get help for yourself as a first port of call. Contact Al-Anon or similar to learn about all the issues that the families of addicts go through and how to break those destructive patterns. I did most of that on my own and didn't get that kind of help until my H was actually in rehab - I wish now I had gone for help much earlier. Having support will help you work out good boundaries and decide on sound strategies for your future. It isn't going to be easy - good luck.

[Hidinginthebath]

The thing is, by not doing what you want you are throwing yourself to the wolves. And even though this seems like a protective measure for your DD, it isn't. Because even though you are keeping a lid on your DH's behaviour and protecting your DD's homelife YOU are fundamentally changed by this. There's resentment, mistrust, worry, angst and desperation coming from your quite short post. And you definitely don't deserve that and your DD doesn't need a mother who is caught in that.

I lived with an addict and thought I protected my children from it but I didn't. Because I'm still not okay from that experience and in the midst of it I was so stressed, unhappy and fraught from trying to work it out that I wasn't the best mum I could be either.

You have focussed on your DH and your DD so much in your post but the emotional pain you are suffering is clear.

[Wolfiefan]

Ultimatums don’t work. If he wants to stop then he will.
You’re not responsible for his sobriety and as your child gets older they will see him drunk. And take your relationship for the blueprint of what they look for when they’re older.
Al Anon supports family if you want outside help and support. Good luck.

[Isleepinahedgefund]

The kids were just so confused by the whole thing. Although my brother wasn't a nasty drunk, he would make grand promises and then not remember/make good on them, he stole from people (including me, and took the kids' pocket money). His addiction came first and they came last. He would disappear for days at a time without contacting anyone. When he was there, he would ignore them. He could also be wonderful and charming and engaged with them and perfect step dad etc. It was like there were two of him. He would also drink drive with them in the car all the time.

Even if you think your DD hasn't noticed/it's not affecting her, trust me, it is in some way.

My brother only sought help when he had hit rock bottom. The step kids' mother left him, he ended up homeless and living back with out parents. He treated them like dirt as well, ruined parts of their house, disturbed everyone's lives and was really difficult. He lost his job because he would regularly just not turn up.

At the time there was good provision in our area for NHS inpatient detox, I found details of it and eventually he decided himself that he would do it. He is sober and did do all the psychological treatment, but he has never acknowledged the hurt and damage he caused to those around him. I hardly have a relationship with him now as a result of all this. I am glad those children were totally removed from his influence (he doesn't see them now).

[dapplegrey]

Op go to al anon - you will get plenty of support there.
I am sorry you are going through this. Alcohol and addiction I guess are the no 1 ruiners of family life.

[Microbeans]

Thank you all for taking the time to repond.
Incredibly I wasn’t actually expecting it to be so unanimous. The clarity you all have had made me sob due to the reality of the pending disaster. But this is so true.....

YOU are fundamentally changed by this. There's resentment, mistrust, worry, angst and desperation

Thanks again x

[blueangel1]

From my own (bitter) experience, you can give an ultimatum, but it can only a few ways:

• If you're lucky, they quit and pull themselves together
  
• They say they've quit but drink in secret. The agony gets prolonged until you rumble what they're doing
  
• They blame you for being controlling and everything goes tits-up anyway
  
  Sorry. I lived with a high-functioning alcoholic and lived through all this crap.

[Tartypants]

I don't think you should let this go on either. If he's drinking too much for you to be happy with (it sound like he definitely is) then either he needs to stop or you need to go. If you would stay if he wasn't drinking, it is worth asking him to stop, and trying to support him in that if he is willing to. But I would say, put a time limit on it and not a long one. And if it doesn't work out by then, be prepared to leave, and be prepared to do the huge majority of the parenting yourself because if he is unpredictably drinking you will not be able to leave your DD with him for any length of time e.g. overnight. Personally I think kids react to splits better if they are younger - if you are going to split up it is probably better for your DD to go now (or soon) than to wait for the teen/tween years.
Good luck - it's really sad and hard I know.

[echidna1]

Al-Anon saved me after my life unravelled because of my H's alcoholism.......but I had to hit my rock bottom 1st before I crawled to my first Meeting. I soon found the very necessary support from people who knew exactly what I was going through - unlike my well meaning RL friends who couldn't possibly begin to understand.

I stopped obsessing about my H & his drinking by taking the focus off him and putting it firmly back onto myself and my daughter. It cleared my mind and after a year, I started to recover. I had a clear head after 5 years of increasing misery, isolation, stress and worry.

Unfortunately, my H didn't ever hit his rock bottom.
I divorced him because his behaviour really spiralled out of control as I was no longer reacting in the same way to his drinking.
I also had a clarity of mind thanks to Al-Anon so I knew that I was making a rational decision.

Your DH needs to hit his own rock bottom before he will seek help from AA. It has to come from him and from no-one else.

[Microbeans]

Echina thanks for your response. I do need to stop thinking about everyone but me. I have found an Aa support group near where I work that has a session Monday. I will just turn up (I hope that’s right!) and see how it goes.

I wish I had got help sooner. There have been so many times when I look back that I should have said enough. Some I’m thoroughly ashamed of.

Now it feels harder as he’s improved so much but it is true I’m now bitter and it’s killed our marriage. He would never drink drive or steal etc. He doesn’t ever need to. He lies about drinking - typically always but that’s it.

I’ve read everyone’s responses over and over - it’s so therapeutic to have shared this tiny fraction and to have receive some views. No one knows what I know except maybe his family to some extend but I would never discuss with them!

[Microbeans]

[Prestonsflowers]

microbeans
When I first came to Mumsnet I read a thread by Pointythings
It was long and detailed her efforts to make sense of her life with an alcoholic. And the effects on her daughtersI followed her thread and found myself silently wishing her luck and help. It’s very inspiring I think I delurked almost at the end she and her daughters survived and I think you may find her thread of help.
@Pointythings I hope you don’t mind me mentioning you but I found your thread so moving and emotional

[SendintheArdwolves]

Good luck, op.

The thing about an ultimatum is that you can't issue one in the hope of effecting change in someone else - you can only do it as a statement of actions YOU intend to take.

So saying to your husband "you need to quit drinking, else I'm off" and hoping that he'll see how desperately unhappy you are and change is not really effective. But you can say "I can't stay in a relationship with someone who behaves like this" and mean it - and then if he doesn't change, you leave.

It seems like a distinction without a difference, but it is important to be clear about what an ultimatum is - it is a statement of your boundaries, not a threat used to get what you want.

Otherwise you will be vulnerable to the other person accusing you of being controlling, unkind, manipulative, etc - and that's not what you're doing.

[pointythings]

The lying is enough. It really is. You should not have to live with someone who habitually crashes out drunk on the sofa - you are worth better than that.

Don't compare yourself to other people (like me) and say 'well, my situation isn't as bad as that, so I have no right to want to leave'. The only person who can decide what they can and can't live with is you. When you get married, you promise to love and cherish. Is your OH cherishing you? I don't think so.

[pointythings]

The thing about an ultimatum is that you can't issue one in the hope of effecting change in someone else - you can only do it as a statement of actions YOU intend to take.

Sendin yes, this! That was what my ultimatum was - if you continue to do this, I will leave. And I did leave.

[croprotationinthe13thcentury]

This guys doesnt sound that big a drinker (in the normal, non-mumsnet world anyway). Could it be he does the secet drinking because he knows you dont like alcohol OP?
Regardless, it does sound like you have gone off the bloke anyway, irrespective of the booze.

[Wolfiefan]

Drinking a whole bottle of spirits on the way home isn’t being a big drinker! Jeez.

[Moonflower12]

You say he would never drink-drive, steal etc.
I say yet.
I was married to a functioning alcoholic. He started to spiral downwards.
We eventually left. I do wish we'd left earlier. I still feel massive guilt for what I put our children through by not leaving earlier.
Please do get help and support through AlAnon.
Sending you big hugs.

[SinkGirl]

My mum divorced my alcoholic father when I was six months old. We used to go there for weekends (he insisted, and fought her for this, even though he gave no shits about us). My earliest memories of him were him picking us up, drinking a six pack of special brew, falling asleep on the sofa and then driving us home (we would have been 5 and 7).

As we got older and my mum moved us away we’d go and stay during holidays. His drinking worsened when his longterm girlfriend left him. He became sexually abusive towards me - the first incident I remember I must have been 11 or 12 but other things I remember make me think it must have started way before that.

You need to get your daughter away from this environment, it’s toxic. She knows more than you think and it’s becoming her normal. This isn’t normal and you know that. I am now terrified of drunk men and all my previous trauma is triggered if I can smell beer on my DH.

As for concerns about him having her without you there, I can totally understand that and don’t know what to suggest but I hope someone can help you.

Sending hugs and strength

[Microbeans]

• 
  

I get what you are saying and I’ve driven myself crazy over the years wondering that. As I have such an extreme reaction to it now it feeds the cycle. His lying doesn’t help as it makes you think you can’t trust yourself - or he actually does blame you.

I honestly cannot be around him drinking anymore without a extreme reaction so I remove myself.

The fact is he is an alcoholic. I know this.

He does stop for a drink on the way home with friends and enjoys himself. He leaves his job in the afternoon and goes to the supermarket to get his fix. It’s not fun it’s not lifestyle it’s dependency. He is so worried about running out if we get a bottle wine it’s always two and small spirits bottle - he’ll finish it or fall asleep trying.

He can be my normal loving husband half the week or more. I’ve withdrawn though so even that doesn’t work now. Anyone that knows us doesn’t see any of this.