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Lying to CMS out of spite(33 Posts)
Ex has told CMS he’s earning around £150 a month. Total lies, he works full time - tried a mandatory reconsideration last month which was declined due to insufficient evidence (? .. aren’t they meant to find the evidence?!) but as it’s been the annual review I can appeal again. Any advise? Not sure if it’s worth appealing again when I’ve told them he works full time, and the type of work how many hours etc.. what more evidence could I be expected give?!
We have no contact and he’s trying to get out of paying out of spite, not financial difficulty. So works out he will pay around £2-3 a week for DD. he lives with family so has low rent/bills.
I'm pretty sure he has to evidence what he earns, he can't say he earns £150 a month if he doesn't!
They go off last tax year if they don’t supply last 5 weeks payslips. I feel your pain though
NotSuch - I have no idea how it’s happened or he’s got away with it, but he is definitely working full time hours.
Swingof- it’s possible but unlikely, he was working three weeks ago and he enjoys his job and working.
If he pays tax they’ll catch up with him, eventually. I know that doesn’t help you now.
It’s fucking disgusting that men get away with this, it gives me the absolute rage! Not very helpful to you though OP!
I am suffering this at the moment op. Sorry to hear this. My gs's dad earns between £750-£900 per week but refuses to supply his wage slips and just ignores them. They then just close the case. Yes, really. I was turned down for mandatory reconsideration without being given a reason. I simply cant supply proof via wage slips.
I gave his employer name, address, information regarding the job advert applied for with salary details. My gs has seen his wage slips as he boasts about his earnings but none of these are sufficient.
You can go to Tribunal but it is essentially court and you in reality are going on speculative info, the same as me. I felt I couldn't face the stress.
But, it can pass you to the Financial Investigation Team, who are so slow moving your children will be adults before they have got on with it. The real name is the Fraud team and the staff often refer to them in this way. They have further powers to investigate wage info. You have to be insistent.
I think you have got to get a mandatory reconsideration refusal first. I think they refuse most, see if you have the balls to go to Tribunal and at the last minute look at a possible appeal. Ridiculous but there you have it.
Good luck op. Please dont give up and keep pressing them.
What industry does he work in/can he be getting paid cash in hand? My friend's ex did something similar, he was a carpenter on almost 700 a week - told CMS he was on £250 and his boss went along with it and was paying him cash.
They should be basing the amount on the previous tax year though. Sorry I don't have any actual advice, he's a shit.
As someone who has recently been through the Tribunal process (and won) I would strongly recommend doing it. Yes, it is time consuming but appearing in front of the Judge was OK. Basically they demand bank statements, savings account statements, ISAs etc from the paying parent and go through it all with a fine tooth comb. I am not at all assertive or confident but in fact once the case got to the Tribunal I didn't really have to do very much. The onus was all on my DS's father to explain the discrepancy between his finances and what he was paying. He did his pompous, blustering best but ultimately the figures spoke for themselves. I got 4 years worth of additional payments - plus the satisfaction of seeing him proved a liar.
My partner pays CMS for 2 girls, it's calculated every year. They go off how much tax he pays, NOT what he claims he is paid. I would call CMS and ask them if they are checking his tax rather than going off what he says he earns.
Elsie - that’s awful, I tried the mandatory reconsideration (which was turned down) with a really vague letter which didn’t say much except that there wasn’t enough evidence.. when they hadn’t looked for it.
Eyycarumba- the annual review just happened and so I think it must be off tax.. but I know for a fact the amounts given were incorrect. He works in security (I think through an agency) but I can’t imagine they would pay him cash in hand, so surely all CMS would have to do is look over his bank statements?
Bath - that sounds terrifying! So does it go to Tribunal if the mandatory reconsideration gets declined and you protest their decision?
Twinkle - they just did the annual review so I think it must be info from HMRC - it’s just totally wrong . The amount on the letter would equate to him working one shift a week.. when he works most days
I think going to the Tribunal is potentially terrifying for the paying parent, but it wouldn't be for you. The Tribunal had no interest in my financial circumstances so I didn't have to disclose anything, or even say very much at all. I made my application under the old Child Support Agency rules as soon as I was notified that the mandatory reconsideration had been declined but I think it's the same process under the CMS. What was reassuring to me was that the Tribunal Judge knew exactly the right questions to ask because (presumably) she'd dealt with men like my ex before and knew all the tricks for trying to hide income and savings. I guess it depends to some extent which judge you are allocated but mine was excellent and wouldn't put up with any nonsense from my ex - who did his utmost to obscure the facts.
Bath - to be honest he’s a horrible person and anything which involves him gives me a certain amount of anxiety now. I might opt for that as it’s within the 30 days - what would happen if he quit his job in the meantime, would the tribunal just reach the same verdict as CMS and that would be that?
Thanks for the info, nice to hear something positive from someone who’s been in this situation.
He also has arrears and enforcement action is meant to be taking place in regards to that
I'm at the stage before the tribunal. I was speaking to someone today at the CSA - an appeals writer who writes to the tribunal. She said there have been so many cuts that neither the CSA or CMS have the budgets to keep chasing stuff. Also interesting was she said it's down to the parent to be proactive as the CSA won't suggest anything.
My ex is self-employed it seems I could have asked for a variation on the formula to calculate his income or something. Too late now. Should have done it back then but didn't know.
She said the CSA don't get income figures off the HMRC and hadn't for years - again I was misled on this thinking that the CSA would be checking every year with HMRC to see what his income was. Not sure about the CMS in this respect - they said they would but didn't.
Like you I pointed them in the direction and gave so much evidence thinking they'd investigate - the woman I spoke to today said basically they don't have the manpower or the budgets as it costs too much to do. She said you have to be really proactive to get anything and anywhere as the agencies aren't.
As self-employed my ex got away with showing his bank statements to the CSA so they put him on a default maintenance payment. He then changed to a limited company and paid himself in dividends. I think she said you can get the CSA or perhaps CMS to look into this if it looks like he's hiding stuff away.
Bathsheba had a great judge and I'm hoping I will too - the woman I spoke to today said they sometimes get a feel that the non resident parent is hiding stuff and not complying so they'll put something called a negative interference on that and set an amount that they think he should have paid. It's a nightmare frankly.
What if they claim to the HMRC and CMS that they are self employed and are only making £100 a week, (giving mea whole £6 a week for kids) when you absolutely know they are making 6 X that?
What happens then? They've investigated but as he works in cash they can't find anything to prove he doesn't make £100.
My ex also induces panic in me every time I see him ( mercifully never these days). He’s an arrogant bully and I was more worried about facing him than I was about speaking to a judge. Again, I don’t know if it’s standard procedure but we were placed in separate rooms whilst waiting for our case to be called and once you’re in there you don’t speak to each other directly at all - the judge asks the questions. My ex is far more articulate than I am and I really did worry that he’d win the judge over with his highly plausible bullshit. She just let him rattle on and then calmly picked holes in what he’d said. It was a joy to behold! Iam sure there must be plenty of others who did not have such positive experiences but I’d say it’s worth putting in the application at the very least. You could always withdraw it if for whatever reason you decided not to proceed and there’s no cost involved ( at least there wasn’t when I did it). Very best of luck whatever you decide.
Bath - thank you for the info. What did you actually have to tell them? Because all I really have is my word and knowing he’s working.. will I be expected to actually have evidence?
Think I’ll have to send off the paperwork over the next day or two - but don’t want to put myself through the anxiety if I don’t have enough evidence to make it worth anything. Plus I haven’t had contact with him in well over a month now so everything I know is from before this.
Thanks again x
pinkrocker same as you but hes not paying anything for the last 5 months and ows £5k arrears from a few years back
just heard his payments will be going down again as new evidence has come to light,he dosent even bloody pay anything
thats the problem how can you prove the SE earn alot more
my ex dosent want any contact with my dc,sowe have no contact,idont even know where he lives or who he works for
if i had proof i would call fraud to the HMRC also
I didn’t have any actual evidence at all - my case was slightly different to yours in that it was based on my ex’s financial assets rather than his earnings. I knew that he had around £300,000 in savings because he had it when we split ( we weren’t married) and he’d moved straight from living with me into his new partner’s house ( so I knew he hadn’t used it to buy a house). It was basically my word against his which is why my claim got rejected by the CSA first time around. Once the tribunal judge demanded bank statements and credit card statements etc it became obvious that he still had the money but I guess I was lucky that they thought it was worth investigating. My case was under the CSA rules though so that may have made a difference.
Sole Director of his own LTD company
Paid in dividends
CMS told me it's not going to happen, he can hide as much as he wants and they have no power.
This is a massive loophole in the law.
I also went to court with a court order - he cried in front of judge but they didn't even demand to see his bank statements. They just let him off on his say so that he didn't have any money.
We need a system like USA - don't they revoke driving license etc for non payment?
The system is terrible. The woman at the CSA I spoke to was quite sympathetic to me but it doesn't help. Local MPs don't seem to care.
I would shame him on social media and tell anyone who will listen.
Embarrass him as a feckless parent.
Tell his work colleagues if you can get near them/ know any of them.
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