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Women don't make good leaders....

(66 Posts)
BantyCustards Sun 26-Feb-17 08:43:16

...because the Egyptian empire fell under Cleopatra's rule.

Help me respond to this - it's been bugging me for weeks now. I'm not very good at 'arguing' with someone - have been conditioned to keep my mouth shut or suffer the consequences over the years.

This little gem has come from a man I've been dating for several weeks now and all in all he seems to tick all the boxes but this comment - I just can't let it go and want to discuss it with him.

rumred Sun 26-Feb-17 08:45:53

Men make terrible leaders - look at Hitler, mussolini, stalin, atilla the hun etc

rumred Sun 26-Feb-17 08:46:48

Oh and what a twatty sexist comment. Is he not very bright?

PurpleDaisies Sun 26-Feb-17 08:47:21

I agree with rum.

Donald trump?

ameliameerkat Sun 26-Feb-17 08:47:49

Wow, I wouldn't be dating him any more, that's for sure!!!

PurpleDaisies Sun 26-Feb-17 08:48:05

I'd be finding out very quickly if he's a misogynist and getting rid very quickly if he is.

RosaDeZoett Sun 26-Feb-17 08:48:51

I wouldn't even dignify that with a response. Tell him the true warrior engages only a worthy opponent. And then dump himsmile

BantyCustards Sun 26-Feb-17 08:49:13

Why didn't I think of that at the time? Whenever someone (who is important to me or has some sort of power over me) says something that I disagree with I just clam up.

I'm not stupid , am considered intelligent but when faced with a situation that could potentially 'offend' someone I just seem to lose all ability to think logically and say something in response.

hareinthemoon Sun 26-Feb-17 08:52:50

It's not you - clamming up in this kind of situation is about power relations, not intelligence. (I need to get some help with the same thing.) But if he really thinks that what he said holds any kind of logic, remember it is not fair to fight a battle of wits with an unarmed person.

HerOtherHalf Sun 26-Feb-17 08:54:46

Tell him to return to the debate when he understands the relevance of sample size.

HerOtherHalf Sun 26-Feb-17 08:58:34

It's not just that it's sexist, it's that he almost certainly thinks such a blitheringly stupid and logically flawed argument is very clever. You might tell him that he's just never going to stimulate you intellectually and you see no future together.

Offred Sun 26-Feb-17 09:01:58

Eh? Cleopatra was an excellent leader! Does he not know anything about the historical period? obviously he doesn't or he wouldn't say that plus there was Hatshepsut and Nefertiti before her...

Anyone who said this would never see or hear from me again for two reasons; 1. Sexist pig, 2. Arrogantly pronouncing on something he CLEARLY knew nothing at all about.

TizzyDongue Sun 26-Feb-17 09:02:17

He's done the standard thing about a traditionally male dominated area: one woman doing something negative proves that all women are so, and the multitude of men having done the same thing because there have been other men who were positive.

It's a state of mind so ingrained in society that firstly you weren't able to think of a response and that both females and males generally adhere to it.

'Women make terrible managers'
'I had a terrible woman manager once'
'Never had a terrible man manger? I certainly have'
'Maybe, but male name was a brilliant manager'

^ actualy conversations I had with (female) collugue

Lessthanaballpark Sun 26-Feb-17 09:02:22

You are most certainly not stupid for clamming up. It is a normal thing to do especially for those of us who have been taught to avoid conflict and be polite (often women).

He is making the unseen but very common assumption that when a woman does something wrong it is because of her sex whereas when a man does something wrong it is because of his individual failings.

Lessthanaballpark Sun 26-Feb-17 09:03:42

Cross post/point Tizzy smile

TheSparrowhawk Sun 26-Feb-17 09:04:18

His 'argument' doesn't even make sense. Every single other empire that fell was ruled by men, plus male leaders have headed up just about every horrific atrocity since the dawn of time. Men are hideously bad leaders - there is ample evidence for that. Women may also be bad leaders but it's hard to tell because men have acted like total babies and prevented women from sharing power.

Goosegettingfat Sun 26-Feb-17 09:04:23

I don't think you need a response- I would have actually just burst out laughing. I'm actually laughing now. He had to go back THAT far to substantiate the idea that women don't make good leaders??!! Hilarious! I would definitely get rid though.

TheSparrowhawk Sun 26-Feb-17 09:05:15

Oh and you should definitely dump him

Offred Sun 26-Feb-17 09:05:39

Seriously, Egypt was in decline... she staved off roman invasion by being such a smooth political operator, she introduced all kinds of clever laws re the economy and what could be understood as a primitive welfare system which made her an extremely popular leader. She killed rivals to the throne (her own family) to ensure no competition. She used her intelligence to make the right political allegiances. She killed herself rather than allow Rome to capture her and humiliate the Egyptian nation. She in no way was a failure.

Dadsussex Sun 26-Feb-17 09:06:07

Tell the bloke to grow up

Queen Victoria
Queen Elizabeth II
Both the above did/have done pretty well imo

Regardless of gender, a leader inspires, encourages, stands tall and guides ....., being born with a penis or a vagina doesn't predispose either sex to lead.,,,,, circumstances do.

There have been many great male leaders, but equally (and growing) more female leaders too, for a time there was oppression towards women obviously, but in the last 90 odd years surely men can see the error in their grandfathers ways?

When I used to be employed I loved having a female boss when the opportunity arose! They listened to every idea and it was about getting to a goal not just looking good all the time

Lessthanaballpark Sun 26-Feb-17 09:06:38

I love this illustration

TizzyDongue Sun 26-Feb-17 09:07:13

Cross post maybe but I missed an essential parts!

"He's done the standard thing about a traditionally male dominated area: one woman doing something negative proves that all women are so, and the multitude of men having done the same negative thing doesnt prove all men are so because there have been other men who were positive even when there have been women who were positive.

Offred Sun 26-Feb-17 09:09:30

Clearly I am the only one aggrieved at Cleopatra being besmirched... she was one of the best leaders in history IMO during a really difficult period in egypt's history... grin

tribpot Sun 26-Feb-17 09:12:36

So the Roman Empire consisted of the following (modern) states: Portugal, Spain, Andorra, England, France, Monaco, Luxembourg, Belgium, the Netherlands, Germany, Switzerland, Liechtenstein, Italy, San Marino, Malta, Austria, Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Hungary, Albania, Greece, Macedonia, Romania, Bulgaria, Turkey and Armenia. It also included territory in the Middle East and Africa that later became Syria, Iraq, Cyprus, Lebanon, Jordan, Israel, Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, Algeria and Morocco.

taken from

So what can we deduce about the rulers of the other ancient kingdoms? Men don't make good leaders? They were defeated in battle by a superior military force. So was Cleopatra.

I think you need to look at why you clam up when you feel there is a risk of offending someone with 'power' of some kind over you. I would be binning this guy off and working on your self-esteem/assertiveness. I would see his casual (not to mention ludicrous) sexism as a test to see if you will take it and that there is worse to come.

DrMorbius Sun 26-Feb-17 09:14:09

Hi Op - he seems to tick all the boxes was intelligence not one of the boxes??

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