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A different question related to consent

(87 Posts)
Justlurkingaround Tue 02-Feb-16 14:39:07

OK, I'm going to risk posting some very personal thoughts prompted by another thread. I don't think this is a TAAT and I hope its not disrespectful to the OP. There is a very sad thread about consent, with some great advice for the OP in what is very clearly a very wrong situation.

My experience is very far from this...and to me not clear at all.

I've been struggling to get back into sex after 2nd child. DH decided he was going to put the affection back into our relationship. One of the things he did was to "spoon" up to me each bedtime, pressed into me with his hand on my breasts. Very tired I tried shifting his hand but he put it back more firmly saying we needed to be affectionate. I felt told off. He did this several nights. I lay there frozen, feeling awful, like i had no say, and a week later had sex so he'd stop hassling me.

He would definitely be shocked to know this has made me miserable. He probably thought he was helping me. He even said we didn't have to have sex when he saw i was reluctant. Is the misery my fault for not being assertive? I hope he is not reading this as it would make him sad.

I have nowhere else to ask though and have lost all ability to judge anything.

I wonder if I was unfair to have sex when I didn't really want to. That must be hurtful.

goodnightdarthvader1 Tue 02-Feb-16 14:47:31

Very similar issue. He's right that is important to stay affectionate, but not at the expense of making you uncomfortable. Groping your breasts (which were probably sore post-birth) may be "affectionate" in his eyes, but you made it clear you were uncomfortable and he continued.

If the sex happened because you volunteered, it wasn't coercion in the sense that he would be expected to know if was coercion, but sadly it's part of the narrative that we as women are made to take part in, that by not wanting sex we are being unfair or letting our men down. It sucks.

goodnightdarthvader1 Tue 02-Feb-16 14:49:10

Reread your OP, he said you didn't have to continue. Big of him! But how did you respond?

Madlizzy Tue 02-Feb-16 15:05:42

You can be affectionate without having your tits groped. You gave in to sex to appease him, not because you wanted it. If reading this would make him sad then good, he needs to open his eyes and realise that you're not just a piece of meat for him to grope, and if he wants to reignite things, then he needs to treat you better. No means no full stop.

Flossiesmummy Tue 02-Feb-16 15:27:18

Agreeing with what PPs have said.

I think too often men want/expect a level of physical intimacy akin to the early days of a relationship. The thing is, they rarely offer the same level of emotional intimacy they offered in the honeymoon period.

In the past I've dated men who are thoughtful, helpful, do little things to make you smile etc and that gradually fades to nothing.

I'm probably not explaining myself very well but I guess what I'm trying to say is that when the DP makes more of an effort in the relationship, you feel more cared about, more attractive and naturally want to have more sex.

My DH really gets that I think. A few days ago he randomly bought me a bunch of daffodils, washed up after tea, sent me a funny picture on the text during the day and ran me a bath with a drink while he put DD to bed. Surprisingly enough, I was in the mood to be intimate, much more so than if he'd helped himself to a random unwanted grope of my baps.

Just to be clear - I'm not saying that there's a checklist of things one partner has to do for the other in order to win/be entitled to a shag.

What I am saying is that perhaps you could have a word with him about what puts you in the mood and what you find uncomfortable and intimidating.

I read somewhere that people have a love meter - the most successful relationships are the ones where the partners add to the other partner's love meter. Tonight, for example, I'm trying a new recipe that I know my husband will love - it's right up his street. I'm also planning on picking him up a treat on the way home. Yesterday he came home with my favourite chocolate for me. All these things add to the other's love-o-meter.

Hope that helps, if only a little.

kaitlinktm Tue 02-Feb-16 15:32:05

Thanks for articulating this for me Flossie

I think too often men want/expect a level of physical intimacy akin to the early days of a relationship. The thing is, they rarely offer the same level of emotional intimacy they offered in the honeymoon period

Jan45 Tue 02-Feb-16 15:38:41

You should show him this OP, I winced at reading it, he's trying to control you and you are feeling intimated, neither are normal or right!

Next time he tries to over power you I suggest a good fast kick to his balls, what a vile, vile man.

RedMapleLeaf Tue 02-Feb-16 15:57:09

What would you tell your children? Nobody ever has the right to touch your body.

Justlurkingaround Tue 02-Feb-16 16:15:28

I said it was fine when asked. So yes, clear consent.

But I knew he was getting fed up.

I guess I'm less concerned about whether it's technically coercion, more just that on reflection I found it to be an unpleasant development after many many years, alongside other things which I feel are slipping.

RedMapleLeaf Tue 02-Feb-16 16:26:19

I think it's really difficult when somebody we love and trust touches us in a way we don't like. It's difficult to accept it, let alone deal with it.

Jan45 Tue 02-Feb-16 16:41:28

Where about is it clear consent, you tried to remove his hands no?

What worries me is you say you felt you had no say, why is that, does he intimidate you?

david8341 Tue 02-Feb-16 17:05:59

Ok.. I think maybe it's like this.

It sounds to me like he think's it's because you don't feel attractive / sexy. And he's trying to show you that you are. A bit clumsily, unsubtle..but he's trying. It sounds like he's being quite nice about it, not pressuring you.

The thing is if you DTD to stop him hassling you thats not how he's going to see it. He thinks what he's doing is working and that things are getting better. He's done THING and got RESULT so he's not going to stop, it's working.

I think too often men want/expect a level of physical intimacy akin to the early days of a relationship. The thing is, they rarely offer the same level of emotional intimacy they offered in the honeymoon period

I think this is true. He might not realise it, you might not realise it or be able to really articulate what's changed or what's wrong but there is a problem that needs to be fixed. You need to talk openly and work together to have a happier and closer relationship.

If you do feel that he's "overpowering" or "intimidating" you and that he's a "vile vile man" as others have suggested then it's a much more serious problem but I don't really get that from what you've said.

Jan45 Tue 02-Feb-16 17:18:25

If you do feel that he's "overpowering" or "intimidating" you and that he's a "vile vile man" as others have suggested then it's a much more serious problem but I don't really get that from what you've said.

I doubt she finds her OH vile, thanks for highlighting my comments though - any person who forces their hand anywhere on any part of your body is violating you, the OP has already said this made her uncomfortable.

What's worrying is she did not want his hands there, he insisted, eventually she had sex with him to avoid any more hassle.......and you think he is trying to help her? Help himself more like.

Offred Tue 02-Feb-16 17:32:50

He said you didn't have to so he knows you didn't want to.

He shamed/guilted you into you not stopping him touching your breasts when you were tired from childbirth.

That's my reading.

It is not right at all. It's very very wrong.

RedMapleLeaf Tue 02-Feb-16 17:36:07

It sounds like he's being quite nice about it, not pressuring you

Yeah, apart from the bit where he ignores her request not to and does it all the more firmly hmm

He's done THING and got RESULT so he's not going to stop, it's working.

What kind of man thinks that getting what he wants is more important than his partner's wishes and desires? What the fuck kind of a man pushes his partner's boundaries until they give in?

pocketsaviour Tue 02-Feb-16 17:40:13

DH decided he was going to put the affection back into our relationship.

This sounds like he unilaterally decided what was wrong/needed in your relationship, and just made a plan and did it, without really discussing it with you or getting your ideas on how to improve things or giving you a chance to express your own feelings. Would that be a fair reading?

AskingForAPal Tue 02-Feb-16 17:50:54

If someone forced their hands onto my breasts saying "we need to be affectionate" I would fucking lose my rag at them, but clearly you were too exhausted and confused for that.

He's obviously confusing "affection" (something you both feel for each other usually) with "his sexual desires being met". And it's the second one of these that he's pressuring you into. It's not affection, my lovely, it's him wanting to use your body as a comfort object for himself. If it were actually affection, he wouldn't want to risk you losing respect and trust in him by groping you when you actively move him away from you. What a dick.

"He even said we didn't have to have sex when he saw i was reluctant...I wonder if I was unfair to have sex when I didn't really want to. That must be hurtful."

It sounds to me like he's got you thinking that he's the only real person in this relationship, the only one who has real, human feelings and can feel "hurt". You've been groped and then pressurised into sex and it's clearly upset you - so why are you worrying about him? Has he shown any concern for you?

Justlurkingaround Tue 02-Feb-16 18:24:27

I seem to inhabit a world of perpetual confusion these days but your post is helpful david because I imagine it's what DH might say.
Everything is about my poor communication and we need to talk at length about our communication skills. Fuck that. Your post gives me a bit of rage. I can't explain it but it makes a break from depression!

VoldysGoneMouldy Tue 02-Feb-16 19:16:29

If anyone else, that you weren't in a relationship with, decided there needed to be more affection between you, and started touching your breasts, even after you moved your hands away, it would be sexual assault.

He has made you feel that his sexual desires are more important than you needs. By telling you "we can stop if you want" but continuing, he hasn't really given you the choice - but gave you the illusion of choice, making himself feel like he's in the right about what he's doing.

You were frozen because someone was touching you when you didn't want to be touched, and had sex with him to stop him from doing this.

That's fucking awful.

Justlurkingaround Tue 02-Feb-16 20:59:38

OK some very straight answers. No idea how to process or what to do but they reflect how I was feeling anyway.

Gabilan Tue 02-Feb-16 21:21:22

OP what jumped out at me is that you feel that having sex when you don't want to might be unfair on him. How does that work? You bend to his will AND feel sorry for him?
I know this situation is hurtful and confusing but if you don't want him to touch your breasts he shouldn't. It isn't a clumsy attempt to be nice - it's treating you like a possession. There are many ways to be affectionate. Unwanted groping isn't one of them.

Justlurkingaround Tue 02-Feb-16 22:09:23

But he won't have acted on purpose. If he knew I feel like he groped me and I felt pressured into sex he would feel like I was suggesting something very unpleasant about him.

Siolence Tue 02-Feb-16 22:27:54

He bloody knew you didn't want his hand on your breasts but he insisted on it anyway.

He wore you down into having sex just so he would stop harassing you. He knew you were not into it and also knew you had already mentally decided to do it.

It's coercion. It is unpleasant. And he did it.

And you are not the only woman it has happened to.

A NICE husband does not insist on having his hands on your body when you say no.

A NICE husband does not do this repeatedly knowing you do not like it.

A NICE husband who stops before during sex seeing you are not into it takes it off the table and cuddles in and tries to find out what's wrong.

The reason it is bothering you is because you know it wasn't right.

AnyFucker Tue 02-Feb-16 22:35:31

There is something very unpleasant about anyone who knows another isn't into something physical but coerces them into it anyway

That is a fact. No getting away from it.

DrSeussRevived Tue 02-Feb-16 22:43:42

"Very tired I tried shifting his hand but he put it back more firmly saying we needed to be affectionate. "

He touched you sexually knowing that he didn't have your consent.

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