Ex taking children out of Europe

[Flapjacksmad]

My ex husband took our 2 girls aged 10 and 12 to Spain for a holiday with my consent. He gave me very detailed information about where they would stay and I had his mobile number. However, while they were there he took them to Morocco for the day. I'm not sure what to think of this as it's obvious he knew he would be going, if not before the trip then at least the day before. He could easily have told me but seems to have chosen not to. While I am all for my children seeing new things and getting experiences, I don't feel comfortable with him taking them out of Europe, especially without my knowledge. Does anyone know what rights I have as to whether he has to have my permission, can I prevent him doing this in future without my knowledge? I know this may seem a bit over-protective but I have reason to not trust him. Thanks for any advice/ thoughts.

[HellonHeels]

Are they back home with you now?

Is he a national of another country?

[Flapjacksmad]

They are back. They seemed to have a good time to be honest. I just wonder what my rights are to know or have a say in where they go. His new wife is foreign (European) but I don't trust either of them. They are both quite random and have a history of not being very responsible. I'm not really sure whether I am making more of this than I need to but feel uneasy about it.

[Christelle2207]

I honestly don't see the issue. It's really easy to go to Morocco for the day from southern Spain, it would just have been another "day out" and I wouldn't be surprised that he neglected to warn you because in his eyes it was a non-issue. A trip to Tangier is an interesting educational experience.

[Flaperon]

Without wishing to sound like I'm defending him, if they were in southern Spain, a day trip by boat to Morocco is a very common touristy thing to do. It's possible he just didn't think of it in terms of 'taking them out of the country'. Same thing with Gibraltar (also another country!).

[Flaperon]

x-post!

[Offred]

Tbh I think you either trust him to take them on holiday abroad or you don't. If you don't trust him either that is reasonable or it isn't. I don't think that he should have had to tell you their whole itinerary.

What are the reasons you don't trust him?

I told XP I wouldn't agree to him taking eldest DC to Spain for a week once - the reasons were he, at that point, was only able to manage 2 hrs of regular contact on a Sunday, had never had them for longer than 24hrs in his own home and the last time he had the opportunity to have them overnight regularly it was court ordered and he messed them around. The last time he actually had had them for just one night at his home he didn't cope and brought them back early AND he was planning to go on holiday along with his abusive alcoholic mother so no trustworthy back up.

I just explained all that and said no to that holiday but suggested he up his contact to ease in and try a holiday in the UK before trying abroad.

I didn't trust him, I had good objective reasons not to so I just said no.

[NickiFury]

It's a ferry ride, there and back in a day. I can't see the issue to be honest.

[DrMorbius]

Do you give your exh a detailed itinerary of all your movements when you have your DC's and update him if there is any change?

[Booboostwo]

I am also struggling to see why he is trustworthy enough to take them to Europe but not slightly further? Why is the fact that his new wife is European relevant?

I don't this to come as a shock but if you are British you are also European what with Britain being in the European continent and all.

[DrMorbius]

So if exH hoped on a ferry with DC's to the Isle of Wight would you have been OK?

[tribpot]

I always carry a letter of permission from DH when I travel with ds on my own (at least partly because we have different surnames). That lists which countries (and indeed cities) we are visiting. I don't think there's a distinction between European and non-European countries.

You could perhaps tackle it with him as it being a good idea to take a letter which lists all destinations, in case he gets stopped. But beyond that I don't think there's much you can do.

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

I presume the out of Europe thing is to do with ability to get kids back if he did a runner with them?

[DrMorbius]

I always carry a letter of permission from DH when I travel with ds on my own So you are not allowed to travel anywhere without your DH's permission?* ....... weird world.

[tribpot]

You need permission from all people with PR when you take a child overseas. Plenty of MNers have been questioned when travelling with a child with a different surname, hence the advice MN publishes. In my experience I have always been asked coming back in to the UK, due to that well known crime of British people abducting British children into Britain . It is completely illogical to ask only when the two passport holders have different surnames, but of course helps to punish women who didn't change their name on marriage, thus a good turn for the patriarchy

[DrMorbius]

due to that well known crime of British people abducting British children into Britain

I wonder what passport control would do if you said "OK, don't let my kids in to the UK, but I am going in anyway. So you keep them.....bye"

You should have given your DC's your Surname and then your DH would need a note from you

[tribpot]

Yes - I assume they do also check men travelling with children who have different surnames. Unfortunately DH is too ill to travel (really at all but certainly without support) so even if I wanted to change ds' name by deed poll and send them off abroad to test the theory, I can't! I suppose it would be cheaper to get my brother to take ds abroad as they have different surnames as well of course

I have no idea what they would do if they asked for evidence of permission and you couldn't produce it. Especially, as you say, on the return leg. This is why the questioning is even more farcical.

[Bubblesinthesummer]

Do you give your exh a detailed itinerary of all your movements when you have your DC's and update him if there is any change?

^ this. If you change your plans slightly OP do you inform your ex of every detail?

[LazyLouLou]

Well, he is their dad!

Is it really the new (foreign) wife you object to?

You may be 'projecting' your own issues onto your kid's relationship with their dad.

[ML29]

I can see the OP's point.

She didn't know they were in a completely different country to the one she believed they were in, even if only for a day.. In light of what happened in Tunisia and the unrest in that whole region, taking the kids there without telling her is a bit negligent and thoughtless.

Also this "I presume the out of Europe thing is to do with ability to get kids back if he did a runner with them?"

I don't think she is being unreasonable at all,

[Patchworkpatty]

I can see why you are a bit miffed but legally there is no requirement for him to provide an itinary of his holiday if he has PR. On his time he is the parent in charge and can make the decisions he considers appropriate. If you have genuine concerns about his ability to make appropriate decisions and don't trust him, then you are at liberty to apply to the courts for a specific steps order prohibiting him taking them out of the country/to specified countries - but you would need evidence to justify your application. I wouldn't give him the pleasure of telling you to bog off -because whilst it would have been nice to mention it , he doesn't have to anymore than you have to tell him where you are everyday when they are with you.

[YonicScrewdriver]

DH and I each carry a lette from the other when travelling separately - not because of different surnames but to ease any queries about permission.

[DrMorbius]

ML29 - negligent The Father taking his kids to Morocco for the day, when he had decided it was fine is negligent??? A day trip to Morocco is hardly near death experience.

The assumption here is that the Father can not make decisions regarding his DC's. Which of course is crap. Just because his decisions are different than yours, doesn't make them wrong.

[Hissy]

If a parent 'did a runner' to a non Hague convention country, the resident parent is pretty much fucked. The courts demand residency agreements in both countries. Good luck with that if they are with the father... A mere woman has no chance against the patriarchy or bribery the other side will use to keep the do away from their mother.

That said, if for one second you think there is a risk of their abduction, then you can legitimately refuse.

Your dc dad gave you his contact details, an itinerary and updates. At no point were your children at any risk, they were with their father.

Tanger is a day trip, it's a fascinating place, so unlike Europe in so many ways. It is not a typical tourist destination and security is tight. I think the chances of a "Tunisia" happening in Tanger are at best minimal.

I think you don't need to be concerned about the daytrip, really. He was open and reasonable about everything else. Would you have been as worried if he'd popped to Portugal? If there are are other issues, then you may need to revise your agreement. Note though that if you have joint residency I believe that each has the right to take their child away for a period of time without formal permission, but you will be best served by checking this. Bottom line is that only you know if you can trust your ex to have his dc best interests at heart.

As for the snorty comments about permission to take ones children abroad with letters of permission, it's always advisable to do so, especially when the children and their mother have different surnames. It's the law for all parents who have PR to have provided consent for their children to travel with the other parent if alone. I have been asked in Holland, and in the UK on return from Egypt. I've never been asked on leaving our own country, which is precisely where we SHOULD be asked, but hey ho..