Don't know what to think, feeling bad

[torontonian]

I am so nervous that I don't know if I will make sense. Husband and I have been together for 5 years. We have a 20 months old boy and I am 16 weeks pregnant. We haven't done anything together in the last three months (not sitting together in the sofa, not having dinner together, not talking, nothing). Excuse is he doesn't have time. I have been at home rest for 6 weeks due to high risk pregnancy, so he was doing laundry, dishes and everything besides his work.
Problem is around the same time he started making friends with other parents at daycare and trying to meet with them. First meeting I joined without been invited... We were waiting for an hour, standing in the cold (he didn't want to wait in a coffee shop). First other parents arrived 45 min late. Finally, it was baby's lunch time and I decided to take him to a restaurant and not wait anymore (we had phones after all!). Baby naps after lunch and he was crying, so we needed to leave and my husband was really angry.
I thought he was just been selfish and stupid but I am telling you because now it takes another sense for me.
one day he went for bread and I was warming up the food. After an hour I called him. He was having a coffee with one of the mother's from daycare that he met by chance... and I was sitting at the table waiting for him!
Well, he started to have his phone in his pocket all the time and suddenly I couldn't take it to play music for baby as we used to do in the car, so I started suspecting something was wrong, so I checked it and I saw that he was texting this woman quite often, so I confronted him and asked if he had scheduled the coffee and had me waiting like a fool.
One day I asked him for his phone and I checked the SMS. He had removed some and then I got really angry.
His explanation is that he was just trying to make friends with other parents but he felt that I wouldn't like if I read the SMS and that was the reason to remove them. Obviously that makes me think that they were not normal SMS you send to other parents from daycare.
Since that day we have been sleeping apart (around 3 weeks) and he has not found the time to talk with me yet. However he scheduled 3 dinners with friends, that mother from daycare was invited over for lunch, etc.
Thing is I checkd his phone today again and he has continued to text this woman. I don't know if she is married or divorced but his husband is abroad. Their conversation is about her complaining about her husband, my husband saying he is a good listener and is there for her, how can he help, etc. Besides that, he says he also has problems... I feel so betrayed. I think this is not respectful or making friends. I think he is approaching her and tht it is totally inappropiate.

I jujst need some advice, someone to tell me that I am taking things out of proportion.

[AmantesSuntAmentes]

I think this is not respectful or making friends. I think he is approaching her and tht it is totally inappropiate.

I agree. So, why do you want people to tell you that you're 'taking things out of proportion'? Is this what he says you do? You aren't.

What do you want, at this stage?

[AmantesSuntAmentes]

I think this is not respectful or making friends. I think he is approaching her and tht it is totally inappropiate.

I agree. So, why do you want people to tell you that you're 'taking things out of proportion'? Is this what he says you do? You aren't.

What do you want, at this stage?

[RandomNPC]

Hmmm, sounds very much like an emotional affair to me. From what you're saying, he is is acting very inappropriately. He should be supporting and talking to you, not offering some random woman a shoulder to cry on.

[RandomNPC]

I know it's a MN cliché, but do you have someone in RL to talk to about this, it sounds like you really need some support.

[torontonian]

Not really. I don't want to tell my mother about this, not real friends here (moved to Canada 4 years ago and not easy to make friends for me: big city, second language...).
I have talked divorce before. The only reason stopping me is my son. Not the typical "united family" excuse, but shared custody. I am afraid of 2-weeks arrangements or things like that. I would die without him for so long.
At the same time, of course, the time and effort (I moved from Europe to Canada to be with him) make me want to make this work. But that doesn't mean tolerating this. I can't make it work if he doesn't want to/care.
The reason I would like to be wrong... obviously because I don't like what is hapenning so I would prefer to be exaggerating and this is nothing like what I am thinking.

[torontonian]

I am trying to talk to him tonight. I have tried so many times... I feel he avoids the conversation. His comments about this messages were just that he is trying to make friends with other parents at daycare. And about removing the SMS that he thought that I wouldn't like them. That was pretty much obvious reason why he would remove the SMS. So not much.
First times I asked him for the phone. Tonight I didn't, so he doesn't know that I have read this conversation. I don't know if I should just ask him about us and our relationship or also about what's going on with this woman. Although I know that his answer is going to be that he is trying to make friends.
Do you consider proportionate to ask him to choose? Keeping the texting or the relationship? I am fine with him meeting mothers from daycare but this seemed way too personal for me. Plus now I know that her husband is away and that she calls him "her daughter's fucking father". I am really angry. I don't understand where this trust came from so suddenly. Talking about this issues with somebody you hardly know. But his responses are not less! "if you need me", "I am good at listening", "what can I do for you", "sorry for my social skillessness earlier"

[torontonian]

"at least our big problems are our own" - I don't really get this sentence, maybe because English is not my first language. I don't know if it has some hidden meaning.
New Year's Day 8am she sends a SMS asking for new year's resolutions. This is part of the conversation that he removed.

[RandomNPC]

Personally, I feel that he is massively overstepping boundaries here. I'm a man, and I certainly wouldn't think of doing this to my girlfriend. Everyone is entitled to have friends, and to make new ones. What certainly isn't ok is for him to emotionally cut you off, and refuse to discuss things with you, while 'being there' for this other woman. You are his partner, his first loyalty should be to you. Have you been with him when he's met this woman in a social situation? My own opinion, and I hate to say this, is that he wants to have sex with this woman, and that he is manoeuvring into position to do it. He is behaving very badly.
It's 3 in the morning here in the UK, I'm only awake because I had a bad dream! There won't be many posters on MN at the moment. Give it about 4 hours, and there will be many more to give their perspectives on this.

[torontonian]

Thanks @RandomNPC. It is good to hear people from the other side of the Atlantic. Feels like home :) From my perspective I see this more from the emotional than the sexual side. I am oriented to think that he has a crush on her, there his need to look at the phone every 2 minutes, anxious to know from her, like the first days of infatuation.
He invited her over for lunch last weekend, at my house. Our kids go to daycare together, so it was a play date. I was a bit pissed off (at him) after all this messages and his eagerness to prepare a good meal (even asking his mother for a recipe). But at the same time I thought that if he wanted to have something with her and/or viceversa, why would he invite her over and why would she come? So I wanted to meet her too and see how they talked to each other. Everything seemed quite normal. Although I remember that when he invited her (at daycare in front of me), her reply was "are you sure?" that was kind of strange for me.
I have been at home rest, so my husband and son have gone to the park on his own several times. There was a lot of SMS asking her where she was as well, so I wouldn't be surprised if they have met with the kids and I wasn't told. I just think that it has been so frequent and constant for somebody that he knows from daycare (5 min drop-offs?) and that they get so intimate.
He has several female friends that he is close to and they go for lunch and coffee alone from time to time or chat or even he sends some gifts like a book sometimes. I feel totally ok with that since he has known these women for at least 5 years and I see that they are close friends. I can understand that. And I could understand him having that intimacy and offering a shoulder to cry on. But this time, it feels so wrong.

[torontonian]

Oh, my mind is so far and abstracted that I forgot to say that I hope that you can sleep now and have better dreams! :)

[AmantesSuntAmentes]

But this time, it feels so wrong.

This. Amidst the confusion and doubt, you know this.

Unfortunately, in affair type situations, often all we have to go on is that feeling. The other person can deflect, evade and downright lie but we still know.

I think you need to try to make your decisions, based upon your feelings about this and try not be reliant upon his input, particularly if he's unwilling to have a productive, honest conversation with you, iyswim? Trust your instincts.

You say future contact agreements are the single reason binding you to this situation? Admittedly, it is hard. Over time, it does become more easy. What's more important for your DC is that you are happy.

[AmantesSuntAmentes]

But this time, it feels so wrong.

This. Amidst the confusion and doubt, you know this.

Unfortunately, in affair type situations, often all we have to go on is that feeling. The other person can deflect, evade and downright lie but we still know.

I think you need to try to make your decisions, based upon your feelings about this and try not be reliant upon his input, particularly if he's unwilling to have a productive, honest conversation with you, iyswim? Trust your instincts.

You say future contact agreements are the single reason binding you to this situation? Admittedly, it is hard. Over time, it does become more easy. What's more important for your DC is that you are happy.

[GoatsDoRoam]

He's having an emotional affair: he's sharing intimate thoughts and problems with another woman, and giving her emotional support, while at the same time cutting you off.

Even if they haven't slept together yet, this is an affair: he is shifting his partnership away from you, and giving it to another woman.

When you discover an affair like this, you need to be firm and quick in your reaction, and tell the cheating partner to leave the family home. Because it's one of 2 things: either they want out, so they might as well be out, and not treating you with deceit and lies. Or they need the short sharp shock of being out of the home in order to realise what it is they stand to lose.

So I think you need to tell him that since he is a cheat, he needs to move out. Be with his other woman, since he prefers her to you.

Will you be able to cope on your own with your health problems? Do you have other sources of practical help?

[ImperialBlether]

Does this man not have a job to go to? He sounds like a teenager looking for a girlfriend, tbh.

Are you from the UK? Is he from Canada?

He sounds horrible to me - I can't imagine living with a man who's getting all excited about meeting friends at pick up time in school - it's clear he only wants to make friends with women, isn't it? Does he have any male friends?

[flatbellyfella]

How does he feel about your new pregnancy, was it planed? Was he happy when you both found out?
He does seem to be pre occupied with this OW,& in need of enlightenment as to where his attention should be.

[torontonian]

Thank you all for your replies. I feel more reassured now, I am not being irrational.
@flatbellyfellaThe truth is that I don't think we are in "pregnancy mode" yet since we had complications and didn't want to get too excited just in case. He came to the two ultrasounds so far and (said he) felt hurt when I said he didn't have to. I am not sure we are made to the idea of the new baby yet, or maybe is just me. The pregnancy was planned, but the difficult start put our feet on earth very early.
@ImperialBlether We live in Canada. He is from here and I am from Spain. I have all my family and close friends back there. He has both male and female friends and he is usually very extrovert and nice, sometimes flirty but I don't feel jealous. I would say that he behaves more less the same with his male and female friends. I feel hurt by the kind of conversation he is having with this woman that we barely know and the sudden need of weekly playdates with "daycare parents". He says that he is going to have a beer next with with another girl's father, but at this point I lost trust and I wonder if that's really true (although I never got him lying to me).
@GoatsDoRoam We are married and own the mortgage together. For now, he is out of my bed, but I can't kick him out of the house.
I talked with him last night about our relationship. I told him that I am not happy and that I feel emotionally abandoned. He has his own complaints as well, of course. Then I asked what is going on with this woman. He says nothing is going on, that I am blowing things out of proportion. I said that in my opinion this chats are too intimate and include talking about our problems to other people so I think that it was inappropiate and not respectful. His answer is always the same. That he is trying to make new friends and this is how you get to know people and that nothing is going on, that I am jealous, telling him what he can't do.
I told him that I wasn't asking him to stop talking with this woman, but that this type of conversation was not appropiate for a married man, so he needs to choose if he wants to be in this relationship or have this closeness with this woman.
We were tired at this point and I went to bed, gave him time to think about it. I don't think he gave it any thought. I am not even sure he thinks it is inappropiate. At the same time, he removed some SMS, so I told him that he of course knew it was inappropiate as there was no other reason to remove SMS.
Anyway, what he says about our relationship is that he wants to make it work because sometimes we are happy together, we have lots of things in common, our son, etc. but that I need to treat him better. His main complain here is the amount of housework he has to do, he thinks I could help. Tbh, he does his share, but the last few weeks that I was on medical rest I obviously left everything to him. We ended up hiring a cleaner, I have cooked, so I am not sure how he is so overwhelmed though.
Besides him saying he wants to make it work, I don't think he is going to stop texting this woman that way.
Somebody asked if I would manage on my own. Financially yes, I have a full time job, well paid. I could have somebody to clean the house. Physically I can't make big efforts, but I can have a normal not stressed live now. Emotionally would be hard because I am quite isolated. Not having my son would be the hardest.

[torontonian]

About the share of house work and @ImperialBlether question:
I work full time and need to go to the office everyday. He is not full time, he has contracts, so there are ups and downs, and works mainly from home. He drops off and picks up DS from daycare everyday (he is the only one who drives as well). And for the rest we have an equal distribution of housework. I usually do all the cleaning once a week and cook some, and he does the dishes every day, garbage, laundry....He bathes DS and I put him to sleep. So although we both feel overwhelmed sometimes I think that we both do our part.

[torontonian]

I thought that I would update this thread since it might be relevant to my next one.

So, after that couple of conversations when he said that nothing was going on, he was just trying to get to know other parents and he would not stop texting and I couldn't tell him what to do...

At the end of February I started to be invited by this woman (I will call her Jane) and other two mothers to host Friday pizza nights with the kids (and partners). I will call these three women and myself "the group". The group went to a play together, bought season pass for the same playground, sometimes stay in the park after daycare, dads go for beers once a month and we (the mums) have gone out for dinner once, for a spa day and we have a whatsapp group where we talk regularly.

So not long after these meetings with the group, the messaging kind of stopped. The odd message saying happy birthday and a few more, but not the constant conversation they had before. I thought that it was that I became the contact in my family by being in the whatsapp group.

Since then, things that still have me thinking:

• From constant chatter that was not only about daycare and kids plans but personal matters, it came to nothing? BTW, DH says he just said that no marriage is perfect but never gave details about our problems.
  

• Jane became "Aunt Jane" in my husband's contacts at some point (when all the texts) but it is now just Jane again. Why the change?
  

• She called my husband to pick her daughter up from daycare once she was late (this was before I met her). He needed to go to her house to get an extra carseat. No idea how he got the carseat...
  

• First time she hosted the pizza night, my son climbed upstairs. I asked him to come down, but my DH went upstairs very comfortably and they stayed there for a while playing. They went to the nursery, her bedroom... like my husband doesn't know about guests boundaries or I am too restrained. He doesn't do that at other houses and the other parents didn't go with them either.
  

• I am not close to her so I don't feel entitled to ask about her personal life, but I hear what she says: her partner lives abroad, he hasn't visited for over a year, sometimes she calls him "bastard", "my daughter's fucking dad", etc. As before, I am not sure is she is in a relationship or not since she usually says that she wishes she had a blind date and things like that.
  

• In one of our chats she described the kind of man that she likes physically. Exactly like my husband, or as she said "like my partner, but the bastard is not here".
  

• She asks a male friend for baby sitting when she wants to go out at night. This man was at one of the pizza nights and I learnt that he is married with teenager kids. It just sounded weird to me that a married man stays at her house taking care of a two years old on a weekend until the am. So I don't know if she doesn't have boundaries with married men or I am too prude.
  

• When we go to the park, DH slides down with her daughter and I have found my DS hanging from the slide head down asking for help while he was with the girl. He will always be holding the girl's hand instead of our DS's. Same thing happens with photos. When with the group I see more photos and videos of the girl than from my DS. Even my MIL knows her by name and asks for her! (the girl), comments how lovely she is, etc. That makes me revolt.
  

• Jane asked my DH to send her one of the photos he took and my DH's answer was "torontonian will send it to you". When confused I asked why he couldn't send it himself, the stupid excuse of "I don't have your email Jane...", then she followed as "oh, you can send it as a MMS...". Hello? Can't you just exchange emails? That was awkward.
  

• Oh, when we found out baby's sex, DH sent two messages to friends to tell them, one to Jane. Two or three days after, she asked me about the appointment and the sex as if she didn't know. DH showed me the message as he was sending it, so he knew I knew he sent it to Jane. No idea why she was pretending she didn't know.
  

Still some doubts. I am really pissed off at how familiar he seems at her house, how he treats her daughter specially and even forgets about our son. About the messages stopping I know I can't know. Maybe they just changed the mean. At the same time, phone is now on the table as it used to be and he is not checking constantly. However, DH still throws a tantrum when I say that I am tired to go to the group get-togethers, etc.

[Howsithanging]

To be honest it sounds like they are just covering their tracks better ie the phone is now on the table, maybe he has another phone?

The familiarity in her home is particularly weird. How could he feel it was appropriate to go in her bedroom? (Well he had been there before of course.)

And the way he treats her daughter. That would seriously piss me off.

I assume you have had all this out with him.

I would not put up with this and would challenge him on all of it every time it happened. At the very least this is an inappropriate relationship and an affair is brewing, at worst, well you know, the affair is already happening.

And how convenient that her husband/ex is away.

[schlong]

Err. Have you actually confronted him? Sounds like an affair to me. Sorry. But you must know this already. Have it out with him.

[BettyCatKitten]

I bet his got another phone. Tbh it sounds like they're having an affair. The bedroom thing is highly suspicious. And favouring her dd would massively piss me off!! Have it out with him (though he'll probably lie). How awful when you're about to have a baby

[schlong]

Err. Have you actually confronted him? Sounds like an affair to me. Sorry. But you must know this already. Have it out with him.

[torontonian]

So we had this conversations about the messages at the beginning of the year and he kept saying that he was doing nothing wrong and he would not stop contact, that she was just a friend. Then I started meeting with her (in a group) and messages stopped a month or so after that. From daily to nothing, out of the blue? He always evaded to explain it. "Nothing", "she just talks to you now because you have this whatsapp group"... We are now going to counselling and I demanded an answer to that if he wanted to work on us. An whole hour as we sheltered from the rain, asking him to be honest...and he finally produced an answer. "I told her that you were angry because you thought that I was taking more care of her daughter than our son and she asked me to stop texting her".
Now again this doesn't make sense to me. They have grabbed at least a coffee lately (again had me waiting), they talk after daycare while kids play, we have pizza nights together... so I don't see why she would ask for that. At the same time I now know that he is asking another friend for advice as he thinks that "a female friend over 35 (and this is her for sure) is taking much longer to recover from a break up than he would have allowed for grief". So they obviously talk.

H and I have attended our first session of therapy together and we need to decide if we want to use it to improve our marriage or split amicably. I had been trying to ignore all this situation with "Jane" until we got to counselling and now his answer is resonating in my head. There is something that doesn't click. My last of trust added.
I want to ask Jane the same question. Is it a bad idea? I don't think they are having an affair so I don't think they have calculated and planned the answer.
But I do think that the real answer to it is that one of them tried it on on the other and that's why the messaging stopped. Maybe my mind is playing games, I don't have any hint of this as they haven't tried to avoid each other, that would be my reaction.

So I want to ask her and I need a good approach. I don't want her to run away, feel offended or be evasive. I need a way of getting an answer from her so I can finally put my mind at rest. I can think of three scenarios:

1. He is telling the truth. Nothing happened they just talked about their problems, she is grieving... when she thought she could be a trouble for our marriage she tried to avoid it.
   
2. He was sleeping in the spare room at that time and saying we were not together so maybe he tried to kiss her and she rejected him. Hence she asked to stop messaging and he decided to try our marriage.
   
3. She tried to kiss him and she then felt like a fool. Hence she stopped messaging.
   

So Jane and me always meet in group. There is maybe 5 min of small talk with each of the parents, group talk, some groups messages about events for kids or how pregnancies and jobs are going... we are not friends. I can't have a heart to heart with her or ask her in confidence.
So if nothing hapenned I don't want to look like a crazy woman. If something hapenned (2 or 3) I want to know so I nod to be sensitive enough to get the truth from her (since this is not something I think she would like to tell me - she even sends couple books suggestions to my H to work on our marriage, so I am sure that she doesn't want to split us up).

Any ideas? I don't even know if it is possible to get an answer or she will just look with a blank face to me and ask me if I am ok, that nothing hapenned. Then I would be embarrassed and in the same point. I believe that the less likely scenario is that she tells me the same as DH. So I don't know if there is a point in asking and hoping she wants to tell me something.

[SugarOnTop]

it sounds like they are as bad as each other when it comes to lying and deceit - you can't trust either of them. given her penchant for wanting men around her house at inappropriate times etc and asking them for help instead of turning to her female friends - i would assume that she enjoys the attention from men....and she doesn't care who's man they are. she's already told you indirectly that she fancies your husband - there is NO WAY she will admit to anything inappropriate on her part. i also think your gut instinct about something 'physical' being the reason behind the 'change in contact' is probably a lot closer to the truth than your mind/heart will allow you to believe right now. from my experience of women like her, if you question her on anything to do with your husband she will act all offended and play the 'victim' card...i,e she's being made a scapegoat for your marriage problems, that you are insecure etc etc. then she will most likely go badmouthing/gossiping about you to everyone and cause trouble in your friendships. She is not a woman i would call a friend, she sounds more like a 'frenemy' (an enemy posing as a friend). The only person who owes you the truth in this is your husband but he won't give it.

have you asked your husband about him walking round her private rooms with ease? About how he behaved with her dd? All these small details you've noticed need to be brought up in counselling and answered by him, as that's the kind of stuff that will 'trip' him up in his lies.....because he thinks he's sooo clever that he's forgotten that you are not stupid and have picked up on the body language and observed what they either forgot or were too self absorbed to cover up.

my feeling is that he is just not that invested in your marriage/relationship and has been getting his kicks elsewhere - and i doubt she has been the only one, with you working full time he's had plenty of opportunities to cheat without you knowing about it or even suspecting...you only suspected this one due to the evidence and the fact that you were personally involved in the group. my gut says they are covering their tracks because he knows you will find any 'evidence' if they don't. A woman who stops close contact with a man due to the reason he gave would NOT then carry on meeting up with him on her own.

i know you have that burning desire to know exactly what's gone on and is going on between them two but they will never tell you. i've been in a similar situation with an ex years ago and i know how awful it is wanting your gut instincts proved correct but not being able to do so. i confided in a couple of friends (who i trusted not to tell anyone else) about his previous cheating (like you i too found text messages) and the current suspected cheating and his apparent lack of 'awareness' regards boundaries etc (i never gave the other woman's name though - deliberately). i finally saw sense and broke up with him a few months later. who was the first person he was seen getting all loved up with? That's right - her! Just like i knew he would! They first lied and said they only became close AFTER we'd broken up but i made sure everybody knew that it was her he'd been cheating on me with - and by now i had proof - an email where (apart from the explicit stuff) he was telling her he would 'have to be careful cos Sugar's got eagle eyes everywhere!". Damn right i did! i will never doubt my instincts ever again!

oh and re detail, i only got proof they were still cheating because i was obsessive about snooping through his email account. he'd forgotten that he'd told me the password ages ago and thankfully he never thought to change it. there was nothing suspicious in his folders and no emails from her....except for the one important tiny detail he missed in his cover up - he forwarded an email (from her) from his real account to the new 'cheating' account - and forgot to delete that one last email of hers from his 'sent' folder