Just walked out after argument with 'd'f - next steps?

[Whatjusthappened2015]

A minor disagreement with my father has just escalated into me walking out of my parents house with my daughters - am I overreacting? Started off with df saying Ched Evans deserves another chance and saying a jury shouldn't be able to wreck his life. I disagreed with this and then we had an argument in which he said people lie in court all the time and he didn't believe the victim was telling the truth. Although he says he knows nothing about the case but I told him it made me feel sick he could think that way. I'm really shocked and disappointed in him as he's never shown this sort of attitude before - he was very negative about all the recent male celebrities who have been in court. I had my two dds with me and just wanted to get out of there, not sure how we're going to resolve this. Anyone any experience of dealing with such an opposing view from a close family member? Thanks

[Whatjusthappened2015]

Just to clarify the opposing view that really concerns me is that he is questioning the conviction, I just can't get my head around why he would do that, although he does have a long term distrust of police and the justice system, I have no idea why though.

[Tobyjugg]

I think you need to get them emotional aspect out of the way first,

Assuming that you are not related to any of the parties involved in the Evans case, then, to reducing to its basics, what we have here is an argument on a point of principle concerning an item in the news. It could equally well have been over (say) politics, disarmament , or the EU.

If we accept that, then you need to ask yourself, was it just something said in the heat of an argument over which we will agree to disagree and never mention the subject again? If the answer to that question is "No, it's too important" then all I fear you will have to go nc with your df.

[ShumbTucker]

Ooooooh yes. My father and me have some very different opinions. We have had some very heated discussions on various issues including the Ched Evans case. I usually tell him that whilst I love him, I don't always love his opinions and we both agree to stay away from discussions about politics/feminism/immigration in order to keep the peace.

Opinions are like arseholes, everyone has one and some of them stink. I cant change my Dad or his opinions but we can agree to keep to "neutral territory" so to speak.

Oh, and remember "you cant argue with stupid"

[Tobyjugg]

Sorry, posted while you were typing the 2nd part of your post.

That is where you are on safe ground. Neither you nor your father were in Court, the jury were. If they say he's guilty then (subject to a successful appeal) he is. If I were you, I'd say that and then let the matter drop. There's nothing more to be said (or can be said) on that point.

[Tobyjugg]

Shumb You said what I was trying to and a damn sight better.

[Whatjusthappened2015]

Thanks Toby, it's useful when I think of it in those terms. He's usually a wonderful df but he's revealed a side of him I didn't think existed. Too be honest I think his views are definitely coloured by the fact he mistrusts the police. I would like to think if he read the facts of the case he would change his view. It is a more evocative subject than most as it's just a reminder of the attitude that some aspects of society has towards women in these cases, and I thought he was better than that.

[Waitingonasunnyday]

If it helps: I have been amazed, and disgusted, at the amount of people who I thought were perfectly decent and yet have been defending that rapist and his 'right' to another highly paid chance.

I am at the moment really disappointed in at least 5 people off the top of my head.

No idea what you should do next, but you are not alone. I really thought this country was a bit further along than it is.

[Whatjusthappened2015]

Cross posted with everyone - thank you! Yes I think we will have to agree to put it aside and never mention it again! He does like to debate and play devils advocate but I don't think he realised that it would result in me walking out the door! I feel I have to show how strongly I disagree though for my dds and I also have 3 sisters, actions speak louder than words.

[Whatjusthappened2015]

You can't argue with stupid - love that shumb! Waiting I agree, it really concerns me that my dds are growing up in this sort of environment, but what can we do change it? Anyone have any ideas?

[Waitingonasunnyday]

I wish I knew! My (male) boss said I was being a witch hunting feminist. To which I replied that I'd have the same opinion if CE had raped a man.

[Joysmum]

My understanding is that he admits to having sex with a woman who he says gave consent.

He doesn't accept is that even if consent were given, she was too drunk to have legally given consent. That's why he doesn't believe he's a rapist.

According to the law, it's ultimately a man's responsibility to not have sex with a drunk woman otherwise he is a rapist because she can't have legally consented.

What I don't know is if he'd been drinking. They were in town for a night out so that would possibly mean yes they'd been drinking too?

What I do feel is that if a woman can't be deemed capable of giving consent when drunk, how can a man be deemed capable of making a judgement call on her ability to give consent?

If he'd not been drinking then even with my concerns of a man's judgement being impaired by alcohol, there would be no moral mitigation of impairment of judgement.

If he had been drinking, I personally think it's fair to assume if a woman's judgement is impaired by drink, so will a man's.

Not an easy subject and one I have strong views on as a rape victim myself.

[ShumbTucker]

My DS is 9, he isn't daft and generally doesn't take my Dad too seriously in all honestly. We use some of the "disagreements" as a conversation starter about how people have different opinions, even the people you love the most might not always think the same way but you must respect that persons right to their opinion, even if you think its wrong.

I know how you feel about our kids growing up with these messages but you seemed to turn out ok . All you can do is arm your DDs with the knowledge you have and the ability to keep an open and emphatic mind, I don't think you can go far wrong with that.

[Vivacia]

Are there any crimes you can't legally commit if you are drunk? Are there any crimes you can't be deemed a victim of because you were drunk?

[Whatjusthappened2015]

Okay just rang df to say let's agree to disagree and he has apologised says he thinks in some cases courts get it wrong (in general) but he's done some reading and thinks no football club should employ him and that he should have to live with what he has done like the victim. My faith is restored. Sounds like you're doing a great job waiting, I guess we just have to keep giving the right messages to our ds and dds and hopefully we will see changes in the next generation.

[Whatjusthappened2015]

Sorry Shumb I meant you are doing a great job with your ds.

[ShumbTucker]

We all do our best, bloody minefield this parenting lark!

[Whatjusthappened2015]

Agreed! I'm just feeling my way at the moment, we can only do / say what feels right at the time, awkward when it leads to obvious disagreement with other family members though as I'd rather the children didn't pick up on it.

[Joysmum]

Are there any crimes you can't legally commit if you are drunk? Are there any crimes you can't be deemed a victim of because you were drunk?

That's a really good question

[Waitingonasunnyday]

I think if you are drunk, you could argue that you maybe don't have the capacity to 'intend' or have a motive in certain cases.

Eg If you didn't didn't intend to kill someone, but you did, you could be found guilty of manslaughter rather than murder, depending on the circumstances. But I can't think of any others.

[WalkJumpClimb34]

Joysmum are you saying that if you get raped by someone who is drunk then you should have no right to press charges? That is crazy.

[kaykayred]

JoysMum - By law, if someone commits a crime whilst under the influence of alcohol or drugs then it is considered an AGGRAVATING factor, not a mitigating one.

Your argument would be like saying you can't press charges on drunk drivers, because they were too drunk to know what they were doing.

The world doesn't work like that. Luckily for us.

[HootyMcTooty]

I had an argument with a friend about this a few weeks ago in the pub. I'm amazed at how so many people seem to think that what he did wasn't that bad or that his lack of remorse is just proof of his innocence. My friend and I had to agree to disagree. It's not worth losing a friend over. I think I gave him some food for thought though.