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Falling pregnant is 90% a woman's fault

(189 Posts)
Gingerandhibiscus Fri 12-Apr-13 18:29:30

Women CAN'T win!!!

REading through a thread on mn here where a single pregnant poster was pasted, interrogated judged and made answer for herself - I feel something like despair. (I don't know how she must feel).

Women don't 'put out' they're prudes and frigid or they have boundaries up around them. Or they're too fussy or too picky, or they're up themselves, or they're ugly, or they're spinsters. or feminists. What criticism are there for men who aren't in a sexual relationship.

if they have unprotected sex they are judged for 1) having had unprotected sex, and 2) if they get pregnant they're judged for not taking the MAP, and not having an abortion.

of course, if they had had an abortion they'd be judged for that too.

The original poster on the thread that has ME slackjawed works so she can't be attacked for seeking benefits. But some posters told her she shouldn't seek maintenance because it's not right given that the father wanted her to have an abortion. confused others told her she had a duty to seek maintenance on behalf of her child.

another poster told her that his taxes are propping up the running of the CSA. He seemed angry that the law and the state support a single woman in her unplanned pregnancy.

women can't win no matter what they do and what they choose. Unless they get married at about 27-33 to a nice man they'll be judged at some point. You literally can't move as a woman without being judged. ANd not just by men, but by women ... and that upsets me... :-(

girliefriend Mon 15-Apr-13 20:46:30

I suppose the only difference is that men can't choose whether or not to have an abortion, so in my case I felt as I wanted to have my baby that this was my choice and as her sperm donor father couldn't make the same choice he was able to walk away.

SolidGoldBrass Mon 15-Apr-13 20:44:47

A lot of the men who claim to have been tricked are men who just moaned and whined about disliking condoms until the woman shrugged and decided that they could damn well take the consequences.

Also, this idea of a woman who not only lies about her fertility but puts pinholes in condoms and tells her mates she's going to get pregnant by a specific man whether he likes it or not... well, statistically such a woman might exist. But so do men who like impregnating women against the woman's wishes, and claim to be firing blanks in order to do so.

Fairenuff Mon 15-Apr-13 17:55:31

It's very difficult to be 'tricked' into parenthood.

If a man doesn't want a child all he has to do is keep his sperm away from the woman. If he doesn't want a child he should take responsibility for his own fertility.

That's means using a condom correctly, every single time and keeping them in a place that can't be tampered with. A locked box if necessary.

Even then he is still risking pregnancy because condoms are not 100% effective. Everyone knows this but I think it needs to be hammered home more because lots of men still think they are not responsible simply because they can walk away.

bobbywash Mon 15-Apr-13 17:29:42

Hmm intersting discussion, if I didn't want a child, I would take what precautions I deemed necessary and if the person I was with didn't want one either, I would expect them to take their own too. However if they didn't it wouldn't stop me from continuing to do so.

I can understand (though not agree) where the perception of "womens fault" comes from in unwanted pregnancy, because it is a womans body that changes in pregnancy. Hence a viewpoint would be, if you don't want your body to change through pregnancy you take the steps to avoid it, regardless of what the other does.

Yes men can just eat, shoot and leave (to paraphrase the book and the panda joke), but it doesn't mean they shouldn't take responsibility.

bunchamunchycrunchycarrots Mon 15-Apr-13 17:12:05

Men who claim to have been 'tricked' into parenthood IMO are not the innocents they claim to be. It's usually a cover to excuse the shitty decision to walk away from their own child, ignoring the fact that there is no good reason to justify walking away from your own child IMO.

The 'you' in my previous posts bant was generic btw.

Bant Mon 15-Apr-13 17:04:21

No, as I said earlier, I think any decent man should shoulder responsibility. I was simply asking the point because I have heard of cases where men have been 'tricked' into fathering a child, and I wondered how that affected your views on things.

I also think it's despicable to deny responsibility - or in some conversations I've overheard, refuse to pay any maintenance for children because the mother won't let the father see them.

I'm just saying it's not always clear cut.

And I hope that last bit wasn't a personal attack on me, bunch. You don't know me or my circumstances, all I've done is ask questions.

bunchamunchycrunchycarrots Mon 15-Apr-13 16:55:49

No matter how a pregnancy occurs, even if someone was to go to the extreme lengths as described, it's never the child's fault they have been conceived. Yet you think it's ok to walk away? Have no responsibility? Again, if you let someone else supply the condom, or give them the opportunity to tamper with it, then you are still taking a chance and even when not tampered with, condoms still fail. It's a frankly idiotic and immature attitude to have that you can have a tantrum about how a pregnancy happened, and then fuck off as though there is nothing to consider afterwards. You still have a child that you always knew there was a chance could be conceived. Everyone who has sex knows this. I just do not get the idea that you have a child and choose to have nothing to do with it. It's just despicable to think that way. If you can't handle the possibility of being a parent then frankly you're not mature enough to be having sex, no matter how old you are.

Fairenuff Mon 15-Apr-13 16:52:00

If you choose to have sex you are choosing to risk a pregnancy, there is no 100% contraceptive other than abstinence so it is always 50% man and 50% woman

This is the bottom line. The only sure way to not create a baby is to not have sex. Everyone knows that it's a risk. You can minimise the risk but it is still there.

If a child is created then both parties are equally responsible.

Yes, there could be the very rare instance where one person lies to the other or attempts to sabotage contraception. But that is not usually the case. More often no contraception is used, or it is not used properly.

So many people are too embarrassed to admit they didn't use contraceptive so they say the condom broke or the pill failed, etc. But most of the time they just don't take responsibility.

Ironically, it is those men who think that they are not responsible if the woman chooses to keep the baby who are more likely to end up paying child support for an unwanted child because, instead of taking care of their own fertility, they just want to 'blame' the woman.

Men with this view consider abortion a form of contraceptive so are less likely to use effective contraception themselves and more likely to end up an unplanned pregnancy.

Owllady Mon 15-Apr-13 16:48:55

and how many women get pregnant after pinholing a condom?confused

but all contraception carries a failure rate I am afraid, and we all should be responsible for that as well <looks at third child>

Bant Mon 15-Apr-13 16:43:39

So purely as a philosophical point, what responsibility would he have if she had sabotaged the condoms? If he had taken every effort, on top of her supposed infertility and pill use to still be 'safe' - and she put a pinhole in it. Is he still responsible then? How much? 50%? 1%

5madthings Mon 15-Apr-13 16:40:53

No it doesnt take away any of his responsi bility as HE is responsible for HIS fertility. He makes a choice to control that or not.

Its wrong for anyone to lie or decieve someone, man or womam but we are both equally responsible for our own fertility. So if a man or a woman doesnt want a child then they should control their own fertility.

Controlling your own fertility is tge responsible thing to do if you dont want a child and no matter what sex carries the risk of pregnancy, be that contraception failure or miracle pregnancies when one or other person thought they were infertile.

If you choose to have sex you are choosing to risk a pregnancy, there is no 100% contraceptive other than abstinence so it is always 50% man and 50% woman.

bunchamunchycrunchycarrots Mon 15-Apr-13 16:40:32

Nope he willingly gave away his sperm. If he thinks he can cry sperm thief when he did not wear a condom then he really is thick isn't he? As well as an immature coward. Stolen from? FFS he wasn't raped was he? Have you actually read any of this thread bant? Maybe you should if you genuinely believe its ok for a man to walk away from his own child 'cos he was 'lied to'. He didn't wear a condom. If his sperm goes on to create a child, then he has equal responsibility for the child created. I'm actually shaking my head in disbelief that you actually think he gets less responsibility because he's been 'lied to' when he didn't take precautions himself. Unless you are another on the wind up? hmm

Owllady Mon 15-Apr-13 16:36:18

of course it isn't fair but he still has the option of controlling his own fertility, all men do

and I find it abhorrent that a woman would do that too, but it still doesn't make a man not responsible for his actions. It's not a new thing that women have done this you know, it has gone on for decades. Evolution should ensure that men carry condoms and look after their penis

Bant Mon 15-Apr-13 16:22:00

Surely it takes some of the responsibility away? Or even if he's been tricked and lied to? Basically, he's been stolen from intentionally.

Not a mutual accident, not a mistake on the womans part but an intentional plan to deceive and make him responsible for something he was convinced could not happen?

Not really fair on him, is it?

Owllady Mon 15-Apr-13 16:16:11

It is morally and ethically wrong of a woman to do that but it still doesn't take the responsibility away from her male partner

Bant Mon 15-Apr-13 16:14:58

But if someone is lied to about it by someone they thought they could trust, because they wanted to get pregnant?

If you take your car to the garage to fix the brakes. The mechanic says he has fixed them. You then get in the car and drive down the street, the brakes fail and you crash, as it turns out the mechanic lied. Is that your responsibility or the person who lied about fixing the brakes?

Any decent bloke who fathers children, whether intentional or not, should contribute money for their upkeep. However, intentionally removing the choice from someone by deceiving them I think also removes their responsibility.

Yes they still had sex and should, in hindsight, have worn a condom, had a vasectomy (although that's a bit permanent) whatever - but if she's said she physically is incapable of getting pregnant in order to deceive him - that's not a 'whoops we made a mistake' moment - that's something much more malicious

Owllady Mon 15-Apr-13 15:39:07

exactly. I have already explained to my 12 year old that he must always take responsibility for his own fertility and use condoms, apart from anything else it protects his own health

I was brought up during the AIDs adverts though. It petrifies me how people risk their own sexual health with people they hardly know

bunchamunchycrunchycarrots Mon 15-Apr-13 15:34:36

I would not say he unintentionally fathered a child if he took no precautions. And no it's not reasonable to dismiss his responsibility to the child he fathered if he simply left the responsibility up to someone he clearly didn't know very well. Not too dissimilar to my ex - would I be justified in dumping my DD on my ex because he told me he couldn't have kids? I didn't know him long enough to know for certain he couldn't have kids i.e. we didn't go through fertility tests to determine that as a fact but I still didn't just take a chance, we used a condom which split and then the MAP failed. We both took responsibility. I wouldn't have it any other way, my DD was clearly determined to get heresmile But, having sex can result in a pregnancy despite trying not to create one. What happens afterwards, as I've already said, says a lot about the person. Anyone who walks away claiming they were tricked into parenthood is pretty thick on the one hand, and an immature coward on the other IMO.

Bant Mon 15-Apr-13 15:18:18

So obviously I don't want to make any sweeping stereotypes or anything, but surely each case is different. If a pair of consenting adults have sex using a condom which fails (for whatever reason) or the pill doesn't work, then of course the man should take equal responsibility. They're grown ups and should know what they're getting into.

However, there are cases on MN and one I know of in RL where the woman has told her boyfriend firstly that she couldn't conceive naturally, and secondly she was on the pill anyway. So he didn't need to use the condom he was apparently going to use.

Now in that case, when it turned out she'd told a friend she was going to try for a baby with this guy because neither of those facts were true, isn't the man justified in not wanting anything to do with her anymore? And having less than 50% responsibility for the children he unintentionally fathered?

Owllady Mon 15-Apr-13 10:35:01

oh conventional
over rated in my opinion wink

OhLori Mon 15-Apr-13 10:29:36

Re. age, I think OP was just alluding to doing it all conventionally i.e marrying nice, stable, appropriate man (which is not a bad thing if you can manage it, but obviously many of us don't for varying reasons hmm).

Owllady Mon 15-Apr-13 10:19:31

contraception is the responsibility of both parties, and condoms are sensible anyway due to the sti risk
If a child is created through unprotected or protected sex then it is both parents responsibility to financially support that child if the pregnancy is successful

I don't understand the marrying at 27-33 thing. If anywhere outside that age bracket is it horrific or something?

OhLori Mon 15-Apr-13 10:10:54

And also with Ginger's original OP that women can't win - unless they get married at about 27-33 to a nice man, they'll be judged at some point sad

OhLori Mon 15-Apr-13 10:06:31

I would like to pitch in on the effect of the Sexual Revolution starting in the 1960s (though apparently there was a First Sexual revolution starting in the 17th century).

I think prior to that, it was probably seen as more 50:50. If a girl got pregnant outside marriage the man often had to marry her, or leave the village in disgrace. In a way both were responsible.

However, I think contraception has changed that beyond all recognition. The pill, the coil, effective condoms, the morning-after-pill, and finally abortion. The availability of abortion has meant that women do have the final choice, as OP says 90% choice.

So, you could argue, that women now have full control over their fertility and they don't have to have any children they do not choose to have. Which is great.

However, the downside perhaps is that women are seen as more disposable sexually and I think they are less valued by men. Men take less responsibility for their actions, and are not expected to take responsibility (except financially in some cases). You could argue that men do now seem to want sex without any consequences, physical or emotional.

Anyway its a complex subject. I am torn between SGB's more radical perspective and the other reality.

Fairenuff Sun 14-Apr-13 20:27:47

Interesting that a debate about something so simple and straight forward can run to 7 pages.

We all know how to make a baby. We all know how to use contraception. We all know that contraception sometimes fails.

Unplanned pregnancies happen. Both parties involved are equally responsible.

What, really, is there to not understand about that?

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