Please help me to work this out

[shouldIgetout]

I can no longer think straight about my relationship and am looking for an honest appraisal of the situation. Sorry - this is a bit long

Been married for about 10 years and together for about 15. 3 DCs ranging between toddler hood and preteen.

DH is a very lovely sweet man, very lovely with DCs and with me. But has always been extremely disorganised. Over the period we have been married his behaviour has been a constant bone of contention and destructive force between us. It has created very real financial problems for us over the years but also caused a rift in our relationship as he hides issues and is dishonest. So a flavour of these are

• not paying debts, national insurance and vat that he owed for years - leading to bigger penalties and debts - eventually I had to sort the lot out with accountants and pay them all off with my savings. This was in the first few years of our marriage - he did not tell me about the full scale of the situation - he played it all down before we got married.
  

• trading illegally and being taken to court without telling me .
  

• pretending that he was chasing debts (to extent of fabricating letters to debtors) that he was owed but failing in fact to do it -
  

• hiding the fact that he was taken to court by his old employer for not giving proper notice
  

The situation now is that one year ago he was sacked from his job for something he failed to do in work some 4 years ago but which was serious enough to merit sacking. I knew nothing of it until I read a text from his boss on the mobile - he had been pretending to go to work. He had known that eventually he would be found out hover and a couple of year previously he had started saying that he was going to be made redundant as his company was going under and there were a lot of arguments between us because I felt that he ought to be looking for new opportunities if he knew that he would lose his job and he never seemed to do anything about it.

Since then our relationship has been dreadful. We veer between totally avoiding each other, rowing, and just pretending nothing has happened (oddly we get on pretty well if we ignore all the issues!). We have been to relate but cannot seem to resolve our differences.

I am so confused about this man. He is sweet and kind and will do anything that I ask of him and bend over backwards to be helpful. For instance - when my father was ill he drove me back and forwards to the hospital, this weekend he says he will go to my parents to help them work the tv. etc

He is remorseful about everything and blames himself for the relationship difficulties and has also become depressed. But I think it may be all too little to late

• I don't respect him anymore
  
• I feel bitter and angry with him
  
• I don't feel I can trust him because of his lies.
  
• If I stay I would always live with uncertainty as I have tried and tried to help him be more organised but he never seems to change
  
• Some how I feel abused. Although he would never either verbally or physically abuse me I know but i feel lied to and cheated - mostly I feel cheated out of motherhood as I have always had to carry all of this financially and have been prevented from being a SAHM or even part time mum because of his financial issues. He has never encouraged me when we talked about this and he has never been ambitious or sought to get pay rises and has stayed in quite a low level job when he is capable of a lot more - I feel that he has taken advantage of my success and good wages to have an easy time of it work wise. - is this abuse at some level - am I someone who just cannot see that ??
  

He says he is responsible for all this mess but he just will not do anything to fix the problem and in particular absolutely refuses to look for any work at all. He uses depression as an excuse I think - he does lots of other things in his life which show him to be quite capable of doing a job.

I also feel that I am becoming quite a bitch - I am so angry with him that I cannot suppress it. He says that my anger makes his depression worse. When we row he will seem more depressed the next day. I don't know if this is genuine or not - I swing between feeling angry about it and then guilty. He is depressed in front of me (slurred speech etc) but NEVER in front of the kids. Is this an act for my benefit?

Whatever it is

I feel I should be allowed to be angry
I feel his getting better should not be put on my shoulders like this.

Mostly I am really exhausted by all of this. I really think that I need space from him and wish he would move out just so I can breath. It is very hard having him in the house all day - doing nothing while I work (I work from home). By the time he surfaces (he is an insomniac now and sleeps to about 1pm) I feel ready to rip his head off :) and have to keep a real lid on it all the time! At the same time I am holding up a full time job which I do in compressed hours over 3 1/2 days which is an absolute night mare and trying to keep it all happy and light for the kids - -

[dreamingbohemian]

I think you need a bit more clarity about your husband.

Your problem is not that he's disorganised -- it's that he's a liar and fundamentally dishonest.

I think you can't even really trust the good parts, as no doubt they are just intended to keep you on board and sorting things out.

It sounds like a dreadful environment right now, it must be really awful for your DC. I think a trial separation is a good idea.

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

His problem is chronic irresponsibility compounded by lies. No-one's perfect and everyone makes mistakes and has their weaknesses. The mature response would be to accept his limitations and ask for help. If he knows he has limitations and, rather than do something to deal with it constructively, covers up and pretends they're not happening, that's pretty immature behaviour from a grown man. What's even worse is lying to you about it all and at the same time expecting you to clear up the mess that results. You may not be actually abused but you're certainly being treated like a fool and taken for granted at the same time. Anyone would be furious with that kind of treatment.

Is the depression an act...? Who knows? I'm sure it must be incredibly stressful to be in his skin, never facing up to reality, ping-ponging between inactivity, denial and lies. You're not obliged to stay with someone just because they're ill. Neither is it in your gift to cure him ... even if you still wanted to.

[bleedingheart]

I think a trial-separation might be a good idea.

I feel for you carrying the family emotionally and I would be in an absolute fury with him permanently. I don't think many marriages could survive a couple of the things you've listed, let alone all of them. The level of deceit and the expectation that you will sort it out/pay it off/forgive him is unbelievable! The fact that most of it was avoidable would be the killer for me. He has put you through this because of his own childish behaviour.

What support/help is he seeking for his depression?

[dreamingbohemian]

Ah that's very well put -- there's a huge difference between disorganisation and irresponsibility.

[janelikesjam]

To be honest, I am not surprised that you are angry and resentful.

And I am wondering why you are with him too. You say he is "sweet" but your paragraph on that was quite short and involved driving and fixing a TV . This list of unacceptable behaviour is very long, and some of it pretty serious and strange (pretending to go to work?)

You can't do much about the past. But I think what you've outlined dear OP, is a perfect example of "putting up with things" in a makeshift way till things become almost totally unbearable. And when not being assertive about what you will accept and not accept ends up like this. This is not to blame you - we have all probably done this and I am only now realising it causes more problems in the end, than being clear and assertive to begin with.

You can't change the past. Only the future. If you are exhausted, you probably need some time off work to rest and think and make decisions. Good luck.

[Charbon]

First of all, repeated lies, dishonesty and financial infidelity is abusive behaviour, so I'm not surprised you're feeling abused. Hiding things from a partner is also extremely controlling behaviour, because it involves you staying committed to a relationship without all the facts at your disposal and therefore removes your choice to leave on the strength of those facts.

But now you know. This means that the choices you make from this point onwards are your responsibility. Decide wisely.

[shouldIgetout]

I told him that I wanted a divorce on Sunday and he asked me to think about whether we had properly tried to fix things. He says that we have not because we have not persevered with relate. But I feel we have come to an impasse.

I feel that I need him to take responsibility practically - by looking for work, or committing to take at least some positive steps to get his career back on track. This would help me gain some respect for him,

He says he is too depressed to do anything. He is taking pills and is seeing a therapist and that is all he can do he says. He also says that he needs me to 'like him' as if I appear to dislike him it makes him more ill. But I cannot 'like him' so long as he spends all day in bloody bed doing nothing to get out of the situation (- he is there right now - can hear him just about getting up to pick up the kids from school.. it makes my blood boil)

So you see we are going round in circles and I am going rapidly bonkers and thinking how long is this going to go on for .. another year?? In mean time DC's really don't know what to make of him.. and that's a whole other worry.

[shouldIgetout]

Some of his behaviour is indeed very strange Janelikesjam and sometimes I think that he is really indirectly - passively controlling me.

I set up joint bank accounts for instance some years ago so that we could share savings and work things out together and manage things jointly financially. But he never pays into them (except once when I made him write me a cheque). And he has never paid a single household bill - Instead he gives me £350 per month - this in the context of his earning over £50K per year! He now has good savings and is not giving me anything at all despite the fact that he knows that I am now using all our 'joint' savings. I am not saying that he does not pay for things - he does the groceries and would book holidays and I don't think that he has a mistress in an attic somewhere :) but he would never pay for anything proper - like the mortgage! and he never gave me control of our finances - despite the fact that he will say that he is useless with organising finances. I have been irate in the past about this but nothing I say seems to make any dent in his behaviour.

[MooncupGoddess]

Good Lord OP - I've known lovely yet useless men in my time, but what you say in your last post goes well beyond that. Not contributing to the mortgage when earning £50k+ is pretty unforgivable. I think you are fully entitled to take some decisive action - and it may be that if you get him to leave you will be able to sort out the financial situation at the same time, as he'll have to support his children properly.

[shouldIgetout]

I am sure he is depressed Cogito as his situation is really awful - he believes that he has lost his career and his family because of what he perceives as his mistakes. I really do sympathise. But I feel that I cannot help him because I am so angry - he needs loving care that I feel I cannot give. I also don't think that he listens to me - he never has in the past - so why start now? And then when he doesn't listen I get mad.. and the whole thing goes around and around.

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

It sounds a lot like emotional blackmail to me. Perhaps you could tell him that you still like him, but that you don't want to share a house with him any more. Ask him to recover from depression somewhere else.

[shouldIgetout]

Sadly Mooncupgoddess - he is not working now and unlikely to get another job for sometime so I will be holding financial reins for a long time yet. Indeed I've been told I might have to support him for a bit

[shouldIgetout]

Cogito - don't know if it is emotional blackmail or real - most likely a bit of both. He just told me now (having only just got out of bed) that he feels too bad to pick DC's up from school and that is really pretty unheard of for him (he would do anything for the DC's and we only just got rid of childminder so that he could do it twice a week which he said he wanted to do) . He was very upset. So I feel like a cow sitting here and typing all of this.

I would really like him to leave just so I can have some space to think.

[dreamingbohemian]

I think Relate would be helpful if the problem were one of communication and compromise. But the problem is really his actions, which are inarguably wrong, and no amount of counselling is going to turn his irresponsibility into something you can live with.

He probably does really have some mental health issues at this point his life seems really chaotic and dishonest and unstable. BUT this is all a result of his own actions. He cannot tell you to not be angry or upset with him he's depressed, not a baby.

I do think a trial separation would be helpful. Maybe it will be the spark that gets him to sort his life out? If not, well, it sounds like life would be much better for you and the DC without him. I know I couldn't live with that constant dishonesty and worry about what he would get up to next.

[allthingspass]

He may well be truly depressed, and ime depressed people can be extremely selfish. The question is whether you are willing to allow his illness to make you feel unhappy too, bearing in mind that depression can last for years.

You are not responsible for his illness, and you have the right to strive for contentment in your life. I just wonder whether you will be able to achieve that with this man?

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

Ask him to leave. It's not unreasonable and you shouldn't feel guilty or obliged to keep tolerating him just because he's unwell. Things were bad long before he lost his job and got depressed.

[leguminous]

Oh god, how difficult and horrible for you. :( Sounds like learned helplessness taken to the ultimate extreme, really. He finds life overwhelming so he just sweeps it under the carpet, all the while worrying himself into a worse mental state than ever, and fundamentally believing that he is too weak and useless to sort it out. All very sad, but he is an ADULT. And all the loving care you could give him wouldn't drag him out of this depression unless he gets the gumption to realise he has as much power, agency and responsibility as any other grown up under the sun. It's not even as if you could just take over all the finances and run them yourself, because he hides things and lies about them. I mean, being taken to court?? TWICE? Getting fired and pretending to still go to work? How can you take the reins when he won't give you basic information that's absolutely crucial to sorting out the messes he keeps making?

What he's doing is flopping about from disaster to disaster, somehow thinking that his feeling miserable about it means he's paid his dues and can just palm off the hard work of fixing it onto someone else. Poor me, I can't cope, why won't somebody help me? Haven't I suffered enough? Excusable in a five year old, not in a grown man. I have a lot of experience with depression and I know the kind of hopeless inertia it brings, but I also know that at this point he is a black hole for sympathy and help. He will suck it up and ask for more quicker than anyone could give it.

I am also astounded that his contribution is £350 a month when he earns over £50K - I mean, what the hell? I contributed more than that when I was earning less than half his salary!

I don't like jumping straight to 'leave the bastard', but can you really mend a relationship with someone who betrays your trust so very badly? You cannot fix his depression, that I do know, even if you could muster loving care instead of anger. He needs to do a lot of work on himself. His wake-up call should have come years ago, and instead he's been coasting through fuck-up after fuck-up, any one of which could justifiably have lost him his marriage. Not good enough. It's good that he's seeing a therapist, but frankly I would consider at least taking a relationship break and getting him out of the house for a bit, if you or he can possibly afford it. He needs to know this is make or break time, to light a fire under his arse and get him really working hard with his therapist.

[NicknameTaken]

I just don't see how it would be possible to have a workable relationship with the person, because with all the falsehood, how could you ever know that you were interacting with the real him?

It does sound like he has some kind of mental issues, but you can't be in a relationship with him out of pity and regardless of the cost to you yourself.

[tb]

Given that he would have appeared to have made little financial contribution during your marriage, it would be interesting to find out from a solicitor, what the likely terms of a financial settlement would be.

I would use some of your time at home when he is asleep to look at this bank statements/financial stuff before having a free half-hour with a solicitor.

[AThingInYourLife]

He doesn't need loving care, he needs a kick in the hole.

He's dishonest and a cocklodger.

Just tell him to fuck off.

[shouldIgetout]

Thank you all for all of your messages and support. I am quite taken aback by the fact that not one of you has suggested sticking around and trying to support him through all this . But I think that you are all right and the rational me is definitely with you.

I think that I am just scared to death that I am making the wrong decision.

Madly I know - I also don't think all that badly of him despite all his actions. He tells me that he hid stuff from me because he thought that if he told me the truth I would divorce him. So he was frightened. It is all quite human really.

However - rationally this is still not stuff that I can live with - or indeed should live with and at base his behaviour was not motivated by love for me - but out of self protection.

[shouldIgetout]

When we have talked about separation he expresses fear that he will lose the children . He has never said that he is frightened that he will lose me and has never said that he loved me. Mind you he never was much of a talker that way.

[shouldigetout]

I am posting again on my original post here because I would really appreciate some more support. I have now told DH - 3 times that I wanted out. There have been tears and depression and anger . In between each time - a terrible calm - where everything appears normal - except it is not because I cannot think about anything but Divorce 24/7 and I am sure he is the same.

He says that I should give it some months to try to make a go of it - but he at the same time refuses to get any work which is the one thing I need him to do to help me respect him. I have told him that very clearly and very clearly he says that my demand is impossible. He has some plans for a business that he wants to run - but if you have read the first post here you will see why I have no faith in that idea. He feels that the business is the only thing that would work for him. He cannot see why I will not support the idea and says that I should not keep bringing up his past errors - but should look at the future. The way I see it - if I give it a few months - what will change? Nothing! It is not long enough to establish a business and he will not have got work. I feel that if I stay with him long term I have to accept that I have to support him financially for years to come potentially which I know I would utterly resent so that would finish the relationship in any event.

Also if I don't do something quick he will run out of the little capital that he has (or spend it setting up the business) and I will most likely have to sell our home in order to pay off his share of what he is entitled to from the joint assets.

But even though he is a complete smuck I feel so sorry for him:he has no job, is depressed - an insomniac - its awful, he loses his family life which he loves, he loses his home - and he feels (although I think that this is completely wrong as he is highly qualified) that he has no prospects.

Despite all of this I have enough affection and regard for him to feel really awful about all of this so I still feel completely paralysed by indecision

Is this normal?
Does this guilt mean that I should stay in the relationship ?