OK - so contact with father - I really don't understand.

[busybusybust]

I've been lurking on this thread for a couple of weeks - and it has appalled me. Why can men so hideously horrible?

But what I really want to know is why everyone says 'the DCs must stay in contact' with these utterly appalling men?

Surely it cannot be good for these children to stay in contact with a man who has physically/mentally abused their mother?

I really want to know the answer to this.

[springydaffs]

aha! the voice of reason!!

I couldn't agree with you more OP but countless MNers seem to trot out this line and promote that the mother is expected to die on a cross for her dc and take appalling abuse 'for the sake of the children' 'to facilitate a disney relationship with abusive nightmare father'.

I completely agree with you. Said that already but it bears repeating.

[Alambil]

sad thing is, the courts decide as it is "the right of the child" to maintain contact unless they themselves are at risk of significant harm.

[Kayano]

Each case is different?

A man might think 'oh I can't be bothered to do sod all' and not think much into it
The woman might be seriously at breaking point feeling neglected and emotionally abused when she tries to resolve it etc...

Iyswim?

This type of thing is not generally one size fits all?

[mynewpassion]

Maybe its because the courts have already decided that fathers can still see their kids in most cases. You might not like it but if its been decided by a court of law, what are you going to do?

[babyhammock]

I agree too busybusyust... I wish I could get us as far far away as possible from my ex.

[HeresTheScaryThingBooyhoo]

every situation is different.

[GypsyMoth]

Well it's the children's act. So judges rarely go against it

[GypsyMoth]

Though saying that, the judge decided in our case that no contact would be beneficial ( took ages to rule it, head in hands ' I hate to do this' type comments, re reading notes etc)

But we got zero contact. A section 91(14) first judge had done!

[oldtown]

I agree with you OP. DS's father was never interested in contact, and it's only recently that I realised how difficult life could be if he had been. DS's father was abusive and had a criminal record for violent offences, and I have no doubt that he would have made both DS's life and my life much more stressful if he had been bothered to manipulate us with control and contact. I am not at all convinced of the so-called value in having contact with him, since DS never spent any significant time with him. I have LP friends who continue to suffer with their exes playing games and are unable to move on because the ex has so much power over contact schedules, where they live etc.

DS is now a well-adjusted, high achieving teenager and shows none of the signs of anxiety that is always trotted out about children who don't know their fathers.

[babyhammock]

ILoveTIFFANY can I ask what grounds did you get no contact and how long ago was it? I'm hoping to get indirect contact only

[SolidGoldVampireBat]

There;s a difference between 'father who's a bit of a useless dick/has left the mother for another woman' and 'vile dangerous abusive nutjob'. In theory, fathers who are dangerous to their DC (either because they are unpredictably violent, addicted to drugs and alcohol or sexually abusive) can be forcibly kept away or at least restricted to supervised contact (ie the mother has no need to see her vile XP). But it can take time to sort this out. There were some awful threads a while ago from some poor woman whose XP was horribly abusive to the extent of kicking off repeatedly in contact centres, and even with the backing of contact centre staff she was still having trouble getting banning orders against him.
Though it's worth bearing in mind that a fair few shitty XPs will threaten court action for more access, a lot of them won't actually do it, they are just using the threats to distress their former partners.

[babyhammock]

"Vile, dangerous abusive nutjob"... yup that's him

[GypsyMoth]

Baby....... He failed to turn up for court on most occasions, had been violent to me, and then to new partners throughout the 2 year court case. Massive MH issues, suicide attempts and making sure I knew he wanted to take the dc 'with him'. Failure to comply with initial indirect contact( didn't phone at right time, didn't send letters etc)

Judge and cafcass concluded he was using court system to continue to control me and he also had a forensic psychological assessment which revealed he had planned to kill me ( a strangling attempt) . It was in the psych report which arrived in court at same rime as a MAPPA report. Both horrific. And my fantastic, heavily pregnant cafcass officer pushed it, so the judge eventually awarded no contact.

This was 3 years ago now.

I really had to push this. Pushed for the forensic report which revealed medical records. This was the proof I needed.

[babyhammock]

Thanks ILoveTIFFANY. So glad it worked out for you. Has he kept away?

I'm going to really try and push for a psychological assessment x

[GypsyMoth]

Yes, he's kept away. The psych asses really dies have to be 'pushed' as are v expensive. I was on legal aid so they were at first reluctant.

[GypsyMoth]

• does!!

[babyhammock]

Thanks again. I will really really push for it. I'm trying to read as much around it as I can atm so I'm less likely to be fobbed off.

You must have been so relieved. An absolute nightmare for the 2 years though x

[busybusybust]

Thanks for the replies. I just feel so sorry for those of you who 'just can't get rid of him' - because it seems to me that it's rarely about the lovely children - it's about continued control over their mother.

[MissIngaFewmarbles]

I do appreciate what you're saying OP but along with the men who do just use contact issues to try and control their exs, there are men like DH who truly have no other option than to fight through the courts. 3 years ago he finally got joint residency of DSD agreed. From the 'genuine' end of things I have to say that I find it staggering that anyone would go through the courts system just to spite someone. It is torturous. I know it happens though :(

[judgingless]

It is hard enough trying to pick yourself up after being with an abusive twat, but then you are subjected to ongoing crap from them because, unfortunately, they are the father of your dc.

[BertieBotts]

It's a ridiculous one size fits all policy. The court system is supposed to take DV into account but they very rarely do, and if your ex wasn't actually physically abusive, then forget it :(

You've got it exactly right that that is why the abusers continue with this sort of behaviour - it's to exert their control. There is all this support and pushing to get out of the relationship, and you think the abuse and control will end only to find that it doesn't.

I do think that Ladyintheradiator has a good point though. But contact facilitated for this reason should never be at the expense of the DCs own wellbeing, which I think often it is :(

[ionysis]

Just because a man was a bad husband doesn't mean he will de facto be a bad father.

Just because a man's behaviour to his wife was appalling does not mean his behaviour to his children will also be so.

The courts will assess how a man is likely to interact with his kids and whether or not he would be a dangerous or pernicious influence in their lives. This is a completely separate issue to his relationships with anyone else in his life. As it should be.

[babyhammock]

We're not talking about simply being a 'bad husband', we are talking about abusive people here.

[judgingless]

Alot of us have to 'cross our fingers and hope for the best'. Okay, maybe, even though he was a lousy, bad husband, he can be a good father, BUT how do you know that someone who was physically violent to the mother will not end up using violence to control their dc when the dc develop their own opinions and aren't compliant? And what about the emotional well-being? And the worry about the kind of abuse which is of a highly manipulative nature which the mother may only have come to recognise towards the end of her relationship with the father? Or the callousness/lack of empathy? Or the fear that a dominating man will insidiously destroy their self confidence too?

When you have experience (pre-split of parents) of occasions when your dc were dismissed/ignored/shown lack of empathy/rejected and you recognise the same red flags you experienced as their partner, you worry.