I have been reading the links...

[CardyMow]

That were put up on the other thread. How would I go about getting on the freedom program? I think I need to. I have realised JUST how much of what Ex-P was doing is abusive, and how confused I feel about the way he is trying to be 'nice' to me to get me back. I need someone in RL that I can go to to get some perspective on this.

I would hazard a guess that I have 'put up' with the emotional abuse from Ex-P in the same way that I ignored the physical, sexual and emotional abuse from one of my other exes.

And I would hazard a further guess that I have been almost conditioned to do so by the way my mother is. She does an amazing line in gaslighting, does my mum, which I have known for years, and thought I had dealt with the shit that resulted from my crappy upbringing - but I obviously haven't. And I want to. I don't want to keep going through cycles like this - I deserve better than this, and I WANT better than this.

So could someone tell me how I get on the freedom program please?

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

//www.freedomprogramme.co.uk. The link is associated with Womens Aid.

[Anniegetyourgun]

And while you're in the waiting list, every time you feel tempted to listen to his pleas that it'll all be different this time, he's learned his lesson etc, just remind yourself he's lying. It may be what you want to hear, but it's just a story. We all like a good story, don't we? But when the book closes or the credits roll, we remember it's just fiction, and that guy we sighed over was made up by a clever author (your ex!) and/or given life by a talented actor. The nice guy himself never existed.

[CardyMow]

I am trying to understand that he's only being this nice with an ulterior motive - Today he took me shopping to get DS3 some new clothes - but I KNOW he wasn't doing it because DS3 needed the clothes IYSWIM - he Does need the clothes but Ex-P was doing it to look like he was being nice to ME, you know. I don't even know how to explain it, but I can 'sense' that it wasn't for that - Ex-P even offered to buy ME clothes while we were there - I refused!

[CardyMow]

One of the things we used to have arguments about was time for Ex-P to have to himself. Now if you get 8 days off work a month, to me, the fairest way to split them is 2 days for one person, 2 days for the other person, and 4 days as family time. NOT 4 days for one person, and the other person having to forego any time for them in order for their to still be a decent amount of family time. Which is what was happening. But Ex-P was insistant that he couldn't see his mother less than once a week, which only left 1 day a week for family time - and fuck all for ME time.

When I explained that to him, he was all "Oh if I can't see my mum once a week then I'm leaving" and "your being unreasonable trying to stop me from doing what I want" and "Just cos YOU don't want to see your mum, doesn't mean I have to stop seeing mine".

So how often would have been reasonable for him to spend with his mum in that situation? (trying to find out if I was being controlling like he said).

I NEVER went out without the dc, had at least one with me 24/7, he went to see his mum on his own, once a week. I was proposing once a fortnight for a couple of hours rather than the full day, as a compromise. Is that controlling? It's just I wanted us to have family time AND I wanted some time for ME. Is that unreasonable? Ex-P didn't have 'friends' and didn't go out anywhere else, he has no hobbies (Think I am his 'hobby'...) the ONLY thing he does is visit his Mum. But it was leaving me no time to do ANYTHING without the dc.

Please, can someone tell me if I was being controlling, as I am not sure. It's hard to know when you come from a background like mine (Narc mother, dad with bipolar comitted suicide when he was my sole carer when I was 10yo, stepdad grabs a shovel every time my mother says shit).

[CardyMow]

Are you sure? It's just it has been a recurring problem in both this relationship and the one I had with the REALLY abusive (in ALL ways) twat. That I was being accused of being controlling for wanting time for me to get out and go round my mates houses in the evening for a break, or wanted them to spend some family time together.

I guess I just don't know if I was being 'normal' or not. Seriously, it's hard to know if what I want from a relationship IS normal or weird, because my model from my childhood WAS weird, I know I want different things to what I saw growing up, and that I want to be respected, and spent time with etc, but it's hard to know what someone with a normal upbringing would expect IYSWIM.

[solidgoldbrass]

There is nothing controlling about wanting fair treatment. Unfortunately abusive pricks like your XP have a knack for sensing people who are messed up with poor boundaries because such people are easier to bully and control and take advantage of. You are doing absolutely the right thing by seeking out some counselling for yourself so you become more able to tell people that they are not going to get what they want by bullying you.

[CardyMow]

I didn't 'give in' to his bullying on this issue (and in this case it WAS bullying, there was NO disguising it). It's part of the reason he left...because I wouldn't give in.

It's just hard to know what is right and correct to expect, you know. The thing is is that in all other areas of my life, I am strong, do not put up with shit from anyone, don't let other people I know take me for granted or 'use' me...yet in my own relationships, I seem to have to constantly fight to get what I think should be right and fair, Urk, I don't think I'm explaining myself properly...

[inatrance]

No you weren't being controlling, that's a classic line to get you doubting yourself when you ask for fairness and respect - and it worked! People who are abusive and controlling don't tend to question themselves.

If you haven't already, please read the Lundy Bancroft book. My ex used the 'controlling' line too, if I ever tried to point out his behaviour I was told I was abusive. The Lundy book gave me my mind back and helped so much to clarify exactly what was going on. You will recognise your ex in there and it will help you to learn to trust yourself again.

You have done the right thing.

[Nihilisticbunny]

[pickgo]

You have had the same experience in 2 relationships because they have both been abusive.

As SGB says, that's not unusual because these controlling men can almost sniff out someone who is likely to respond to their control techniques, ie someone who hasn't got the boundaries in place to see what they are up to and get rid of them pronto before they start the self-esteem/confidence demolition job on their partners.

I too am trying very hard to assess what went on in my xrelationship. I know it was ea and was getting very threatening before I went. I've ordered the Lundy book. I realise I'm quite bad at reacting to attempts to overstep the mark from other people quickly enough. I just don't think like that so it's a big effort to see what they are doing and nip it in the bud. Quite often, by the time I realise what they're up to, it's too late.

[CardyMow]

Can you tell me the name of the book - I assume I can order it for my Kindle?

I think I am also bad at spotting what they are up to quickly enough, by the time I realise, it has gone so far it's unbelievable.

Ex-P was sooo much different to abusive twat (who used to anally rape me if I was on my period, who used to throw things at me, who broke things round the house all the time and much much more) that I thought it was a 'good' relationship.

Until he changed. . He wasn't abusive in the same way as abusive twat, but it has still had the same effect.

Why can't I SPOT the fact that they are like this? And why don't I attract anyone who ISN'T like this?

[CardyMow]

And I totally 'get' what you mean by not understanding it because YOU don't think like that - I have tied myself in knots for the last 7 months since Ex-P got really bad trying to work out what was the matter with him, and me, and what was he thinking, and why did he want to treat me like that. .

Now I just want to know how to separate myself from him (am finding it V.V.V hard to do so, basically it feels like he won't let me, he has in the past done some HORRIFIC things when we have split up in the past, including outpouring his emotions on DS2 when DS2 was only 4/5yo, calling social services on me when we split up not last time but the time before that, loads more, stalking me, breaking into my flat when we split up about 10 years ago, and much much more)

I guess I am just frightened of him using DS2 as an emotional 'crutch' if I 'separate' my life from his, and don't want to put DS2 in that position. Which is better - for ME to put up with being fucked up emotionally, or to let Ex-P fuck up DS2 emotionally??

THAT'S what I'm struggling with the most - I know through past experience that if I totally separate my life from his, he will start emotionally blackmailing DS2 like before - his mother was even worse - telling DS2 when he was 4yo that the reason he couldn't see Daddy every day was because "Mummy wouldn't let Daddy live with him because Mummy is nasty to Daddy and won't look after Daddy properly"

[pickgo]

The book I've ordered (much mn recommended) is Why Does He Do That? by Lundy Bancroft.

Oh my LL, your first sounds realy really horrendous. At least you've got rid of them. Well done.

Personally I'm on a self-education quest atm but I still don't know if I'd ever trust myself to spot these types enough to try again. Happy on my own atm.

Think the attracting thing is perhaps a misnomer. Maybe you just have to sift alot of bad uns before you actually go out with a good un? Others are probably definitely better qualified to answer that than me!

[CardyMow]

I suppose at least each relationship is getting less bad....

[pickgo]

Sorry didn't see your second post before I posted.

Wrt your DS, I personally think your duty to DS to get him away from such an awful man has to come first. My DS is in his teens and I so regret leaving it as long as I did before I went. I can 'hear' my X sometimes in things my DS says to me. But I talk to him about why that attitude is not respectful/fair and it is gradually diminshing.

I think ultimately you have to have faith in your DC. If you keep talking to them about being kind and fair to other people when they hear that kind of comment from your MIL (shock) they'll know what to make of it. And sadly, they learn to judge their awful dad's behaviour/talk as well. You just have to keep stressing to them that everyone deserves to be treated fairly and with respect, without being bullied in any way shape or form.

Breaking up can be really really hard I know. And these types never let you go easily. I too went back a few times, so when I went for good he had a really hard time believing it was really for good this time. But if you've made the decision deep down and know you will never go back, then it's a question og just getting through it until they accept it. I have involved my solicitor and would ring the police if I need to. I also have spoken to local neighbourhood pol constable who gave some excellent advice.

[CardyMow]

It's hard to 'have faith' in my DS2 - he has asd and takes everything Ex-mil says LITERALLY. And I can't get DS2 away from the situation properly as there is a court order for overnight contact once a fortnight at Ex-MIL's house dating back 5 years to when DS2 had just turned 3yo. He's now almost 8yo, but NOT as emotionally mature as most 8yo.

I am finding it harder to separate because Ex-P HAS to have contact with DS3 (our baby) in my house as DS3 is a 7mo bf bottle-refuser. If I stopped Ex-P having contact with DS3, he would be straight to court to get a contact order. It's not possible to involve the police when there has been no violence, so I'm screwed on that count.

I know he is trying to control me via the dc, but what option do I have but to let him, when the alternative is for it to affect Ds2 (and in time, Ds3).

And even when we have been apart for over 2 years at a time in the past, he hasn't accepted it. He has even said to me face to face this time that even if we are apart for 10 years, we will still end up 'back together' because we are 'destined' to be together. . I responded by saying that I don't think we are right for each other, and that I won't be getting back with him. It washed right over him. .

[CardyMow]

How would a court go about ordering contact with a bf baby that won't take bottles? Would I be 'ordered' to stop bf / send DS3 with formula? What age will the courts see as OK for overnights? Especially when it wouldn't be at Ex-P's address, it'd be at his mothers' house?

Thing is, I HAD made a definitive decision over 2 years ago, after I had split up with the other really abusive twat, not to get back with Ex-P EITHER. But he ground me down and ground me down by being so relentlessly bloody NICE that I gave in in the end, after 6 months of having him being nice to me every day when I was still fragile. I had even said to Ex-P that he had to be sure he was getting with me for who I was, and that HE could be happy with what I wanted from a relationship (any relationship), and if not, not to even bother getting back with me, as it would be bad for DS2 for us to get back together then split up again (which is exactly what HAS happened...).

He reassured me for MONTHS that he had changed blah blah blah. He has said to me this week that he will NEVER date anyone else, he only wants me (I'm the only person he's ever been with, at 36yo). But I don't think he wants ME just a picture of the perfect 'Stepford wife' that I TOLD him I'd never be. And he has fixed that idea onto me, and is angry with me when I don't live up to it, when I DON'T run around after him, or keep the house spotless, or when I call him up when he behaves badly towrds me. I will NEVER live up to what he wants from me, I'm NOT that type of person.

But even me telling him bluntly since we split up - he is making all the same apologies, saying he was expecting too much of me, and he's sorry, and he was being selfish, and he can be different - in fact he is claiming he IS different already. After less than 12 weeks, with no professional input....

[CardyMow]

Sooooo... how do I STOP him from grinding me down with the 'niceness' again?? As even when my mind is made up, really made up, he 'wins me round'. And I don't bloody want him to, and I don't want to fall for it AGAIN.

[pickgo]

I think you need proper legal advice for a start. The court order is historic and not fit for the present for a starters so you would need to go back. Don't think he'd even get access yet to a bf baby. But you need specific advice for you.

Wrt to the 'niceness' - how can you trust it anymore? You know it's an act and won't last. You have to 'disengage' completely and not get sucked in to the conversations that give him the opening to do the 'hoovering' ie sucking you back in. See the advice here about getting rid. It really helped me. At the end of the day you are entitled to decide who you have a relationship with no matter how nice they are!

Sorry about saying 'have faith' when your DS has asd, I realise that's a bit different. But you can't stop contact completely can you, just get it as minimized as possible. After that you just have to try not to worry as much as you can, keep presenting the 'fair and respectful' argument and hope that as they get older the DCs will begin to see things for themselves. If you are the one looking after them and trying your best every day they see that and respect it eventually it. That's what they will remember when they are adults.

Are you actually apart atm then? I assumed you were...

[garlicnutter]

recent backstory: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/1284829-Ex-DP-need-advice

Well done on getting a clearer picture, loudlass! You're doing really well, and I hope you've managed to get hold of the Bancroft book. (Don't let him read it, btw.)

You can ring up Womens Aid and ask about the Freedom Programme.

You will get things sorted out for yourself and DC, I can feel it in me bones!!

[CardyMow]

Him - READ !

I don't think I could stop Ex-P from seeing DS2, not for HIS sake, but because DS2 would be heartbroken .

WRT DS3, surely it is his right to see his father? Just how much is allowable, how much do I have to put up with? Is twice a week 'enough'?

I KNOW right now that the 'niceness' isn't real - but to start with, I knew that last time. What bloody happened?? How did I let him wear me down again? And how do I stop it this time?

I haven't got the Lundy Bancroft book yet, I can't afford to until Tuesday when I get my TC's & IS.

We ARE apart, he is just spening too much more time with DS2 & DS3 this week as he has a week holiday from work.

Legal advice - would I get legal aid? I thought that had been stopped? If it has, then there's no way I have the money.

Am going to look at the link above, then I am watching a dvd with dd. Will be back later.

[buzzsorekillington]

I'm glad you're seeing his emotional abuse for what it is. Identifying what's going on is a big step in the right direction.

Perhaps the CAB would be a good port of call for you - they'll be able to talk you through legal stuff and what options are open to you.

[CardyMow]

How seriously will anyone take it if he hasn't been physically violent to me though? Surely in court it'll be a case of 'he said, she said', so It would just be classed as a normal separation IYSWIM? So they would award whatever contact he has already anyway?

[garlicnutter]

Isn't it more a matter of structuring it, though? Correct me if I'm wrong - I get the impression he wanders in and out of your lives as he sees fit; wanders IN more when you've told him to naff off, then wanders out again if he thinks he's got you under control.

If that's the way it is, it's not good for you or your kids. Most separated couples have the same 'Dad' times every week, fortnight or whatever. So the DC know what to expect, and you get the chance to organise your life the way it works best for your family.