Please can I have a bit of a hand-hold?

[LostInTranslati0n]

Started a thread about DP's issues/MIL issues a few days ago here. I'm posting on MN now because I don't have the guts to call my sister and my neighbours (good friends) are out. I've texted to see if they're coming back (he's on holiday and I think she is doing emergency housesitting with a v pregnant friend whose DH is also away) because I want to spend the night there.

'D'P is in the middle of building a computer and installing something. I had my headphones on so couldn't hear he was on the phone, took them off to show him something and he shouted "QUIET!" I then saw something totally unrelated was flashing (and had noticed it four hours ago) so I moved to turn it off and he shouted at me again and told me to go away. When I'd gone he started swearing at what he was working with.

I waited until he'd finished and he turned to me and said 'Now what?' What followed was (on my part) a calm request for him not to use that tone of voice with me again. He didn't get it, kept shouting that I didn't understand how important his project was, that he couldn't repeat the phone call and that a call to customer services (to sort out the missed info on the automated phone call) would be more hassle than treating me like an animal/small child (I asked him that outright).

He then told me that the reason I'd moved to turn the thing off (he brought it up) was that I was cross at being told to be quiet and I wanted to interfere in what he was doing. It's a totally separate system, he's works with IT for a living, he knows this. I explained (although I didn't see why I should have to) my reasons three times. Each time he just sneered and laughed as if I was trying to cover my tracks/deflect blame.

He sat back down and I said how sad it was that he didn't believe me - of all people - and would rather make up some convoluted psychological out-to-sabotage-me reasoning. Also pointed out that if I wanted to annoy him I could have just kept talking when he said "QUIET". He ignored me, carried on ignoring me and just snorted when I said he was ignoring me.

I cried silently for a few minutes, couldn't stop it being silent, he didn't notice/care, so I picked up my laptop & phone and came into our room (which is freezing). I'm shaking, have stopped crying. I can't believe how cold he is. I just can't. I'm so sorry for defending him to all those posters (have posted some things under my real MN name but have friends on here now so don't want to de-anon) who said these were red flags. I don't know what to do.

I feel so young and stupid. I'm just so glad we don't have DCs. We were even talking about it slowly (it's why I joined MN).

[LostInTranslati0n]

Sorry, should say I only cried because I felt so helpless. Nothing I could/would say would make any difference.

[lagrandissima]

Sorry to hear you having a crap time. But, if you are unhappy in your relationship, think very carefully before you try for children. Far better to cut your losses now - in a few years from now you could be happily settled and procreating with someone who treats you & your children with more kindness and respect.

[seachange]

Has taken me a while to decipher what's going on in your post! I guess the bottom line is that your DH was shouty, rude, obstinate and childish. I Normal people can be all those things, especially when stressed, but I'm guessing this isn't a one off. For me I think the key thing would be how he reacts when he calms down - will he apologise?

Sorry you're so upset, hope you're ok.

[LostInTranslati0n]

Thanks. I just can't believe that he can be so Jekyll and Hyde - this evening I was feeling rubbish so he bought me a drink, offered to make me tea, came for wander around Tesco (it's huge... I just like to look at the different food ) and now this cold, not listening, I-know-better-than-you crap.

I've already had raised eyebrows this week from my sister and his friend (our neighbour - his friend first but we are close as P & I have been together a while) at some things he has said to me in front of them.

[LostInTranslati0n]

seachange No, he won't apologise. He never apologises. It's something I've brought up a dozen times in the last two years. It's also why I am so upset now - I explained that I didn't like to be shouted at when I'd done nothing to deserve it and he said 'okay', then carried on shouting at me for my perceived psychological undermining of him by trying to turn a gadget off.

[LostInTranslati0n]

Another neighbour has just come home. She's v discrete and I'm really tempted to call and see if I can stay there (she has room). Do you think it would be a good idea?

[branstonsandcheese]

he won't apologise. He never apologises. It's something I've brought up a dozen times in the last two years. It's also why I am so upset now - I explained that I didn't like to be shouted at when I'd done nothing to deserve it and he said 'okay', then carried on shouting at me for my perceived psychological undermining of him by trying to turn a gadget off

.... now imagine that being written by your teenage DC. Imagine the trauma which would've gotten a child to that point of realisation (if they were even able to process it in those terms).

Don't mean to sound harsh but my volatile upbringing did a NUMBER on me - ended up hating my abusive mother and my enabling father. Why would you even consider bring a DC into a life where you are not respected and your partner is given to childish strops.

Like so many people on here, I WISH had seen XP for who he really was before we had children together. Your partner is telling you what he is like and how he thinks of you. Listen.

It doesn't even matter what the trigger was, what matters is his behaviour and that it was so utterly trivial. Even if it wasn't trivial, this is not a healthy guy.

[lagrandissima]

I don't know much of your situation, but for what it's worth...

If the alarm bells have been ringing from early on in the relationship, they're not going to have stopped 5 or 10 years down the line, when you may well have kids with him and will find it harder to get out and start afresh.

If a man or woman is moody and sometimes verbally abusive to their partner, it doesn't usually get better with time. Once you add small kids (and the concomitant sleep deprivation) into the equation, tempers can be easily frayed.

Having been in a similar situation, I would advise you to think seriously about whether your relationship should continue. If you have been in love with him, and invested a lot of time and energy in the relationship, it might be hard to decide what to do. You could try counselling together, or even individually, or simply ask your close family and friends for their frank and honest opinion of your relationship with your partner (although most people will not stick their neck out!)

[DontGoCurly]

Yeh, why not Lost. Get out of there and rest your head somewhere safe tonight.

Unfortunately, I've been through similar and it only got worse.

You're young, you have no kids. Thankfully. Go to your neighbour and relax. Life should not be like this.

[JustFiveMinutesHAHAHA]

Yes - go and stay with your neighbour.

Go back tomorrow - tell him it's over and move on with your life - you know you need to.

[lagrandissima]

You know something - relationships are not all like the one you're describing. I wish I had had the confidence to know that when I was younger. Whilst they're never perfect all the time, or even any of the time, they can be cooperative, trusting, kind, fun, and mutually supportive. That isn't unrealistic to expect. If you're having to consider going to a neighbour's house to escape the ranting, then you're selling yourself short. Good luck.

[seachange]

I'm sorry lost, that sounds awful. You should get some space if that's what you want. Also, his reaction to your getting some space will probably be illuminating.

[nakedandangry]

Oh please please take it from someone who has been there and done all that. LEAVE. Really. Is he making you happy - well no he isn't at all.

Get to yuor neighbours and rest up.

And make your next relationship a really good one. This one I'm afraid is a loser.

[seachange]

Ok, just read your other thread as well. I could be your DP in many respects, my DF is a very angry and often very rude person, most often to DM, and I have picked up many of those traits also :( Thing is though, I've recognised this, I hate that I do it, I get that my upbringing contributed but that it's also now my responsibility to change my behaviour, control my temper and be more the person I want to be.

Maybe your DP will come to this conclusion too, by himself or with your help, or maybe you won't want to stick around and find out whether he can control and change this aspect of himself.

Could you write him a letter if it's difficult to talk to him about it face to face?

[LostInTranslati0n]

Thank you all so much. Sorry to disappear - I did go to the neighbour's. Got fed up waiting for him to call me 30mins ago (was lying unable to sleep in her spare room) and sent him a text telling him I was safe (in his shoes I'd be going spare) shortly followed by another asking if he was awake, just in case he'd gone to sleep not caring and I could get furious.

He called me and was very upset - he hadn't seen me leave, or cry, and his film had just finished so he'd only just noticed I'd gone (he wears headphones and had switched straight from PC to TV - same monitor) and, having seen the light on at his friend's house, thought I was there (wrong neighbour).

I think things are going to be okay. Am typing this as I grab a snack - I've used up all my sugar by shaking so violently at neighbour's. Thank you for your honesty seachange. I am hoping from his reaction that this is his turning point. He said he loved me (first time he's done so) and that he 'wouldn't know what to do without' me.

I'll check this thread again tomorrow. Good night :)

[LostInTranslati0n]

The only thing I have left to add this morning is that he apologised! Without prompting, immediately I got in and in a very shaken and quiet tone of voice.

DCs are, in my mind, off the agenda until we have a long and sustained period without any of this behaviour and if that is due to him acknowledging the problems and helping to improve them.

[ImperialBlether]

You made a big mistake in contacting him twice. Why did you do that? You had gone to your neighbour's to get away from him and then basically sent him texts to ask whether he'd noticed you'd gone.

Of course you can't consider having children with him. Ever, in my opinion. You know you need to finish the relationship and find someone who doesn't have a problem with his anger.

From your reaction to his apology, I'd say you're going to take no notice of what anyone says.

THEY ALWAYS APOLOGISE IF THEY THINK YOU'LL LEAVE THEM!

[amverytired]

Lost - I think you are being sucked back in too quickly. It's a common tactic after being abusive to be profoundly apologetic and make promises that this will never happen again. Unfortunately your partner simply does not have the capacity to make good on these promises. He is the way he is because of his mother's influence on him growing up. He simply does not know how to behave otherwise. He has spent years learning that this is the way to treat people and the only thing that can undo that is probably years of therapy. I'm speaking from experience. DH is now approaching his third year in therapy and it is the only thing that really helped him. I listened to many apologies and promises over the years, but until he understood why he was behaving as he was he was powerless to make changes himself. The good behaviour part might last for a while, but inevitably things slipped back to the way they were. A big part of it was the fact that I believed my issues were causing him to behave as he did. You are doing this too wrt your 'messyness'. Please have a think about it.

[LostInTranslati0n]

I have taken notice of what people have said but I do believe he is a fundamentally good man who has had a shit upbringing and for that he deserves another few chances to see if he can change those bits of his behaviour.

Please believe that it is only having read so many threads here on MN that I decided to leave last night - what I read on here has me constantly aware and assessing our relationship.

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

"I do believe he is a fundamentally good man who has had a shit upbringing and for that he deserves another few chances to see if he can change those bits of his behaviour".

I will play him a very small violin. Many people out there have had poor upbringings yet they do not all act in the ways your partner does towards you. Others too have commented on his behaviour towards you.

His apology actually means nothing, abusive men promise much but give nothing in return. You need to start looking at his actions rather than just his apparant words of contrition because he will now again up the ante of control and abuse.

What are you getting out of this relationship now?. Be honest with yourself here.

What did you learn about relationships from your own parents when growing up?.

You are assessing your relationship constantly; what is he actually doing here. You are carrying it all whilst he does nothing.

How many more chances are you going to give this man, how many more years of your life are you going to spend on him?. He is not your project to try and rescue and or save from himself. Only he can save his own self here and his upbringing at the hands of his abusive mother (she is not actually your MIL) has severely damaged him. You are infact the last person who can help him; he does not want your help.

[OutrageousFlavourLikeFreesias]

Lost, I just wanted to share this link with you -

Very insightful blog

It was shared on a post by a very wise mumsnetter (apologies, I can't remember who it was who shared it) and it's one of the most useful posts I've ever read.

Take care and keep posting, whatever the outcome.

[Dignified]

Lost , this isnt going to change or get any better , in fact its going to get worse . You are very much mistaken to refer to this behaviour . It isnt behaviour, its his charecter , and as we all know it is impossible and unrealistic to change someones personality .

How many times have you now told him that you find this sort of thing upsetting ? Hundreds ill bet . Hes not deaf , he doesnt have a learning problem , he just doesnt care how that makes you feel , and he almost certainly feels entitled to shout at you , talk over you and attempt to tell you things that are untrue . The mindset behind those behaviours is very very unpleasant .

You are already caught in the cycle of abuse , he will now be nice to you and act like nothing has happened . I also think it a mistake to keep blaming his upbringing , many abusive people DO NOT have a bad background , they just are abusive and theres nothing you can do about it .He might have been abusive regardless of his upbringing .

Do not be fooled by the ridiculous apology . Im fairly confidant that there was no discussion about last nights events , just a sad face , and a bogus apology . They are quite capable of turning on the tears when they think theyre losing control . If you are confdent he really is sorry , why not attempt to have a real conversation about why he felt it was ok to yell at you and how that made you feel ?

You previously asked for advice about how to explain to him that certain things were unacceptable . Think about that , he is a grown man , an adut , why does he need anything explaining to him ? Do you think he would yell and scream at a customer ( ie a large man ) or a police officer ? Of course he wouldnt .

Re read your original post and replace the word dp for freind . Would you tolerate a freind seaking to you like that , would you even be freinds with such a person ? Im sure you wouldnt , you might have to look at why you are willing to accept less in a romantic relationship .

[Dignified]

Interesting article

bnarcissisticabuserecovery.runboard.com/t15558

[LostInTranslati0n]

Thank you for the articles. I'll read them when he goes for a run later.

Last night we did, briefly, discuss why I left. He started calling it 'silly' and I refused to back down, saying him not believing me over something so trivial is a big deal and my feelings aren't silly. This led to the apology and the emotional declarations. He was ready to talk then but I was knackered and wanted to sleep.

We have had a tense conversation this morning. I told him everything, including that - regardless of how he viewed his behaviour, no one should ever feel apprehensive about their partner's behaviour and that I would be appalled with myself if I thought he felt the way I do sometimes about his behaviour. I suggested, very gently, that he saw a counsellor and was able to back it up with his closest friends' concern (this is true - they have approached me several times about him bottling up/suppressing his emotions).

I refused to let him negate my concerns. He said I would never have to feel worried about him and I said, regardless of what he thought, I did feel that way and it was a reaction to something external, i.e. him.

This took about forty minutes and, having sat in silence for ten minutes or so, he then said he needed to think and digest everything I'd said. He is very, very quiet and reflective. Nothing I have ever said has had this much impact on him. I saw my neighbour and gave her a big bunch of flowers - she said she's always there if I need her :)

I am sticking to my guns but I'm not willing to call it a day when we both love each other. I accept that he should be able to change his behaviour and he will or I will leave. I'm giving it six months (until my course finishes and I start to look for jobs - this seems like a good break point).

Thank you all for your advice.