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What are the biggest red flags to look out for?(43 Posts)
I have been seeing a NM for a while now. It's nothing serious at the moment as, even though he's been separated for a while, I'd feel better about it all when divorced is finalised etc. NM totally understands this and is keeping his distance whilst still keeping in contact.
Anyway, after being with an EA for around 10 years I'm scared that I'm only capable of falling for those types and so not sure what to look out for.
NM seems lovely at the moment but his divorce is a nasty one and I'm conscious of the fact that there are two sides to every story.
So, it's not that I'm worried at all about NM, just that I'm curious as to what people class as 'red flags' and what to be aware of.
Thank you x
Hmmm, for me...
Anything that turns out not to be true - however minor. And I mean a deliberate lie not a misunderstanding.
"Mental" ex's. I have generally found out why the ex was "mental" not too far into the relationship and it is wasn't down to the ex's behaviour generally
Over the top declarations of love very early on - if they fall in love in a day then they will fall out of it just as quick
Any sense of jealousy of me having a good job/good income/close friends etc
I am happily married to DH by the way and he has never displayed any of the above. But when I was dating, I really attracted some bizarre men!!
here's the link
Here is the text:
The following list is an attempt to outline the characteristics of "The Loser" and provide a manner in which women and men can identify potentially damaging relationships before they are themselves severely damaged emotionally or even physically. If your partner possesses even one of these features, there is risk in the relationship. More than three of these indicators and you are involved with "The Loser" in a very high risk relationship that will eventually create damage to you. When a high number of these features are present - it's not a probably or possibility. You will be hurt and damaged by "The Loser" if you stay in the relationship.
1. Rough Treatment "The Loser" will hurt you on purpose. If he or she hits you, twists your arm, pulls your hair, kicks you, shoves you, or breaks your personal property EVEN ONCE, drop them. Male losers often begin with behaviors that move you physically or hit the wall. Female losers often slap, kick and even punch their male partners when upset.
2. Quick Attachment and Expression "The Loser" has very shallow emotions and connections with others. One of the things that might attract you to "The Loser" is how quickly he or she says "I Love You" or wants to marry or commit to you. Typically, in less than a few weeks of dating you'll hear that you're the love of their life, they want to be with you forever, and they want to marry you. You'll receive gifts, a variety of promises, and be showered with their attention and nice gestures. This is the "honeymoon phase" - where they catch you and convince you that they are the best thing that ever happened to you. Remember the business saying "If it's too good to be true it probably is (too good to be true)!" You may be so overwhelmed by this display of instant attraction, instant commitment, and instant planning for the future that you'll miss the major point - it doesn't make sense!! Normal, healthy individuals require a long process to develop a relationship because there is so much at stake. Healthy individuals will wait for a lot of information before offering a commitment - not three weeks. It's true that we can become infatuated with others quickly - but not make such unrealistic promises and have the future planned after three dates. The rapid warm-up is always a sign of shallow emotions which later cause "The Loser" to detach from you as quickly as they committed. "The Loser" typically wants to move in with you or marry you in less than four weeks or very early in the relationship.
3. Frightening Temper "The Loser" has a scary temper. If your boyfriend or girlfriend blows up and does dangerous things, like driving too fast because they're mad, breaking/throwing things, getting into fights, or threatening others - that temper will soon be turned in your direction. In the beginning of the relationship, you will be exposed to "witnessed violence" - fights with others, threats toward others, angry outbursts at others, etc. You will also hear of violence in their life. You will see and witness this temper - throwing things, yelling, cursing, driving fast, hitting the walls, and kicking things. That quickly serves to intimidate you and fear their potential for violence, although "The Loser" quickly assures you that they are angry at others or situations, not at you. At first, you will be assured that they will never direct the hostility and violence at you - but they are clearly letting you know that they have that ability and capability - and that it might come your way. Later, you fear challenging or confronting them - fearing that same temper and violence will be turned in your direction.
4. Killing Your Self-Confidence "The Loser" repeatedly puts you down. They constantly correct your slight mistakes, making you feel "on guard", unintelligent, and leaving you with the feeling that you are always doing something wrong. They tell you that you're too fat, too unattractive, or don't talk correctly or look well. This gradual chipping away at your confidence and self-esteem allows them to later treat you badly - as though you deserved it. In public, you will be "walking on eggshells" - always fearing you are doing or saying something that will later create a temper outburst or verbal argument.
5. Cutting Off Your Support In order to control someone completely, you must cut off their supportive friends - sometimes even their family. "The Loser" feels your friends and family might influence you or offer negative opinions about their behavior. "The Loser" begins by telling you these friends treat you badly, take advantage of you, and don't understand the special nature of the love you share with them. In some cases, if they can't get rid of your best same-sex friend, "The Loser" will claim he or she made a pass at them. If you talk to your friends or family, "The Loser" will punish you by asking multiple questions or making nasty accusations. Eventually, rather than face the verbal punishment, interrogation, and abuse, you'll develop the feeling that it's better not to talk to family and friends. You will withdraw from friends and family, prompting them to become upset with you. "The Loser" then tells you they are treating you badly again and you'd be better to keep your distance from them. Once you are isolated and alone, without support, their control over you can increase.
6. The Mean and Sweet Cycle "The Loser" cycles from mean to sweet and back again. The cycle starts when they are intentionally hurtful and mean. You may be verbally abused, cursed, and threatened over something minor. Suddenly, the next day they become sweet, doing all those little things they did when you started dating. You hang on, hoping each mean-then-sweet cycle is the last one. The other purpose of the mean cycle is to allow "The Loser" to say very nasty things about you or those you care about, again chipping away at your self-esteem and self-confidence. "The Loser" often apologizes but the damage to your self-esteem is already done - exactly as planned.
7. It's Always Your Fault "The Loser" blames you for their anger as well as any other behavior that is incorrect. When they cheat on you, yell at you, treat you badly, damage your property, or embarrass you publicly - it's somehow your fault. If you are ten minutes late for a date, it's your fault that the male loser drives 80 miles per hour, runs people off the road, and pouts the rest of the evening. "The Loser" tells you their anger and misbehavior would not have happened if you had not made some simple mistake, had loved them more, or had not questioned their behavior. "The Loser" never, repeat "never", takes personal responsibility for their behavior - it's always the fault of someone else. If they drive like a maniac and try to pull an innocent driver off the highway to assault them - it's actually the fault of the other driver (not his) as they didn't use a turn signal when they changed lanes. They give you the impression that you had it (anger, yelling, assault) coming and deserved the anger, violence, pouting, or physical display of aggression.
8. Breakup Panic "The Loser" panics at the idea of breaking up - unless it's totally their idea - then you're dropped like a hot rock. Abusive boyfriends often break down and cry, they plead, they promise to change, and they offer marriage/trips/gifts when you threaten ending the relationship. Both male and female losers may threaten suicide, threaten to return to old sweethearts (who feel lucky they're gone!), or threaten to quit their job and leave the area - as though you will be responsible for those decisions. "The Loser" offers a multitude of "deals" and halfway measures, like "Let's just date one more month!"
They shower you with phone calls, often every five minutes, hoping that you will make an agreement or see them just to stop the telephone harassment. Some call your relatives, your friends, their friends, and anyone else they can think of - telling those people to call you and tell you how much they love you. Creative losers often create so much social pressure that the victim agrees to go back to the bad relationship rather than continue under the social pressure. Imagine trying to end a relationship and receiving tearful calls from all his or her relatives (they secretly hope you'll keep them so they don't have to), seeing a plea for your return in the newspaper or even on a local billboard, receiving flowers at work each day, or having them arrive at your place of work and offer you a wedding ring (male loser technique) or inform you that they might be pregnant (female loser technique) in front of your coworkers! Their reaction is emotionally intense, a behavior they use to keep you an emotional prisoner. If you go back to them, you actually fear a worse reaction if you threaten to leave again (making you a prisoner) and they later frequently recall the incident to you as further evidence of what a bad person you are. Remember, if your prize dog jumps the fence and escapes, if you get him back you build a higher fence. Once back in the grasp of "The Loser" - escape will be three times as difficult the next time.
9. No Outside Interests "The Loser" will encourage you to drop your hobbies, interests, and involvement with others. If you have an individual activity, they demand that they accompany you, making you feel miserable during the entire activity. The idea behind this is to prevent you from having fun or interests other than those which they totally control.
10. Paranoid Control "The Loser" will check up on you and keep track of where you are and who you are with. If you speak to a member of the opposite sex, you receive twenty questions about how you know them. If you don't answer their phone call, you are ask where you were, what were you doing, who you were talking to, etc. They will notice the type of mud on your car, question why you shop certain places, and question why you called a friend, why the friend called you, and so forth. Some losers follow you to the grocery, then later ask if you've been there in an attempt to catch you in a lie. In severe cases, they go through your mail, look through your purse/wallet, hit your redial on the phone when they arrive, or search through your garbage for evidence. High-tech losers may encourage you to make "private" calls to friends from their residence, calls that are being secretly taped for later reference. They may begin to tell you what to wear, what to listen to in music, and how to behave in public. Eventually, they tell you that you can not talk to certain friends or acquaintances, go certain places, or talk about certain issues in public. If no date is present on Friday night - "The Loser" will inform you that they will call you that night - sometime. That effectively keeps you home, awaiting the call, fearing the verbal abuse and questions you might receive if you weren't home for the call. This technique allows "The Loser" to do what they want socially, at the same time controlling your behavior from a distance or a local bar.
11. Public Embarrassment In an effort to keep you under control while in public, "The Loser" will lash out at you, call you names, or say cruel or embarrassing things about you in private or in front of people. When in public, you quickly learn that any opinion you express may cause them to verbally attack you, either at the time or later. If you stay with "The Loser" too long, you'll soon find yourself politely smiling, saying nothing, and holding on to their arm when in public. You'll also find yourself walking with your head down, fearful of seeing a friend who might speak to you and create an angry reaction in "The Loser".
12. It's Never Enough "The Loser" convinces you that you are never quite good enough. You don't say "I love you" enough, you don't stand close enough, you don't do enough for them after all their sacrifices, and your behavior always falls short of what is expected. This is another method of destroying your self-esteem and confidence. After months of this technique, they begin telling you how lucky you are to have them - somebody who tolerates someone so inadequate and worthless as you.
13. Entitlement "The Loser" has a tremendous sense of entitlement, the attitude that they have a perfectly logical right to do whatever they desire. If cut off in traffic, "The Loser" feels they have the right to run the other driver off the road, assault them, and endanger the lives of other drivers with their temper tantrum. Keep in mind, this same sense of entitlement will be used against you. If you disobey their desires or demands, or violate one of their rules, they feel they are entitled to punish you in any manner they see fit.
14. Your Friends and Family Dislike Him As the relationship continues, your friends and family will see what "The Loser" is doing to you. They will notice a change in your personality or your withdrawal. They will protest. "The Loser" will tell you they are jealous of the "special love" you have and then use their protest and opinion as further evidence that they are against you - not him. The mention of your family members or friends will spark an angry response from them - eventually placing you in the situation where you stop talking about those you care about, even your own family members. "The Loser" will be jealous and threatened by anyone you are close to - even your children. In some cases, your parents or brothers/sisters will not be allowed to visit your home.
15. Bad Stories People often let you know about their personality by the stories they tell about themselves. It's the old story about giving a person enough rope and they'll hang themselves. The stories a person tells informs us of how they see themselves, what they think is interesting, and what they think will impress you. A humorous individual will tell funny stories on himself. "The Loser" tells stories of violence, aggression, being insensitive to others, rejecting others, etc. They may tell you about past relationships and in every case, they assure you that they were treated horribly despite how wonderful they were to that person. They brag about their temper and outbursts because they don't see anything wrong with violence and actually take pride in the "I don't take nothing from nobody" attitude. People define themselves with their stories, much like a culture is described by it's folklore and legends. Listen to these stories - they tell you how you will eventually be treated and what's coming your way.
16. The Waitress Test It's been said that when dating, the way an individual treats a waitress or other neutral person of the opposite sex is the way they will treat you in six months. During the "honeymoon phase" of a relationship, you will be treated like a king or queen. However, during that time "The Loser" has not forgotten how he or she basically feels about the opposite sex. Waitresses, clerks, or other neutral individuals will be treated badly. If they are cheap - you'll never receive anything once the honeymoon is over. If they whine, complain, criticize, and torment - that's how they'll treat you in six months. A mentally healthy person is consistent, they treat almost all people the same way all the time. If you find yourself dating a man who treats you like a queen and other females like dirt - hit the road.
17. The Reputation As mentioned, mentally healthy individuals are consistent in their personality and their behavior. "The Loser" may have two distinct reputations - a group of individuals who will give you glowing reports and a group that will warn you that they are serious trouble. If you ask ten people about a new restaurant - five say it's wonderful and five say it's a hog pit - you clearly understand that there's some risk involved in eating there. "The Loser" may actually brag about their reputation as a "butt kicker", "womanizer", "hot temper" or "being crazy". They may tell you stories where other's have called them crazy or suggested that they receive professional help. Pay attention to the reputation. Reputation is the public perception of an individual's behavior. If the reputation has two sides, good and bad, your risk is high. You will be dealing with the bad side once the honeymoon is over in the relationship. With severe behavior problems, "The Loser" will be found to have almost no friends, just acquaintances. Emotionally healthy and moral individuals will not tolerate friendships with losers that treat others so badly. If you find yourself disliking the friends of "The Loser", it's because they operate the same way he or she does and you can see it in them.
18. Walking on Eggshells As a relationship with "The Loser" continues, you will gradually be exposed to verbal intimidation, temper tantrums, lengthy interrogations about trivial matters, violence/threats directed at others but witnessed by you, paranoid preoccupation with your activities, and a variety of put-downs on your character. You will quickly find yourself "walking on eggshells" in their presence - fearful to bring up topics, fearful to mention that you spoke to or saw a friend, and fearful to question or criticize the behavior of "The Loser". Instead of experiencing the warmth and comfort of love, you will be constantly on edge, tense when talking to others (they might say something that you'll have to explain later), and fearful that you'll see someone you'll have to greet in public. Dates and times together will be more comfortable and less threatening when totally alone - exactly what "The Loser" wants - no interference with their control or dominance.
19. Discounted Feelings/Opinions "The Loser" is so self-involved and self-worshiping that the feelings and opinions of others are considered worthless. As the relationship continues and you begin to question what you are feeling or seeing in their behavior, you will be told that your feelings and opinions don't make sense, they're silly, and that you are emotionally disturbed to even think of such things. "The Loser" has no interest in your opinion or your feelings - but they will be disturbed and upset that you dare question their behavior. "The Loser" is extremely hostile toward criticism and often reacts with anger or rage when their behavior is questioned.
20. They Make You "Crazy" "The Loser" operates in such a damaging way that you find yourself doing "crazy" things in self-defense. If "The Loser" is scheduled to arrive at 8:00 pm - you call Time & Temperature to cover the redial, check your garbage for anything that might get you in trouble, and call your family and friends to tell them not to call you that night. You warn family/friends not to bring up certain topics, avoid locations in the community where you might see co-workers or friends, and not speak to others for fear of the 20 questions. You become paranoid as well - being careful what you wear and say. Nonviolent males find themselves in physical fights with female losers. Nonviolent females find themselves yelling and screaming when they can no longer take the verbal abuse or intimidation. In emotional and physical self-defense, we behave differently and oddly. While we think we are "going crazy" - it's important to remember that there is no such thing as "normal behavior" in a combat situation. Rest assured that your behavior will return to normal if you detach from "The Loser" before permanent psychological damage is done.
Dangerous Versions of "The Loser"
There are more severe if not dangerous versions of "The Loser" that have been identified over the years. If you are involved in a relationship with one of these versions, you may require professional and legal assistance to save yourself.
Physical Abuser Physical abusers begin the relationship with physical moving - shoving, pushing, forcing, etc. That quickly moves into verbal threats with physical gestures - the finger in the face, clinched fist in the face, and voiced physical threats such as "You make me want to break your face!" Eventually, these combine to form actual physical abuse - hitting, slapping, and kicking. "The Loser" is always sorry the next day and begins the mean-then-sweet cycle all over again. Getting away from physical abusers often requires the assistance of family, law enforcement agencies, or local abuse agencies. Female losers often physically attack their partner, break car windows, or behave with such violence that the male partner is forced to physically protect himself from the assault. If the female loser is bruised in the process of self-protection, as when physically restraining her from hitting, those bruises are then "displayed" to others as evidence of what a bad person the partner is and how abusive they have been in the relationship.
Psychotic Losers There are losers that are severely ill in a psychiatric sense - the movie description of the "Fatal Attraction". Some may tell you wild stories and try to convince you that they are connected to The Mob or a government agency (CIA, FBI, etc.). They may fake terminal illness, pregnancy, or disease. They intimidate and frighten you with comments such as "I can have anyone killed..." or "No one leaves a relationship with me...". If you try to end the relationship, they react violently and give you the impression that you, your friends, or your family are in serious danger. People often then remain in the abusive and controlling relationship due to fear of harm to their family or their reputation. While such fears are unrealistic as "The Loser" is only interested in controlling you, those fears feel very real when combined with the other characteristics of "The Loser".
Psychotic or psychiatrically ill losers may also stalk, follow, or harass you. They may threaten physical violence, show weapons, or threaten to kill you or themselves if you leave them. If you try to date others, they may follow you or threaten your new date. Your new date may be subjected to phone harassment, vandalism, threats, and even physical assaults. If you are recently divorced, separated, or recently ended another relationship, "The Loser" may be intimidating toward your ex-partner, fearing you might return if the other partner is not "scared off". Just remember - everything "The Loser" has ever done to anyone will be coming your way. "The Loser" may send you pictures of you, your children, or your family - pictures they have taken secretly - hinting that they can "reach out and touch" those you love. You may need help and legal action to separate from these individuals.
The main red flags for me, which tend to be subtle at first are:
Jokey put-downs. These can just be awkward jokes and not meant to be offensive but if he doesn't apologise when he sees that you're upset, tells you that you're overreacting, or worse still starts to put you down even more for being upset then that's a big red flag.
Unwillingness to listen. A mature person will listen carefully when a person has a problem and will discuss the problem calmly. If the person flies off the handle, keeps telling you you're wrong, calls you names or turns everything back on you then they're at the very least immature.
Putting down other women in your earshot - saying "I don't like [a certain type] of woman." All he's doing is signalling to you that you must not become fat/unemployed/dress provocatively as he will then have license to criticise as he warned you he didn't like that.
Any misogynistic attitudes - such as rape victims deserve it if they're scantily dressed, women who don't do housework are lazy, looking after children is women's work. You'll have to put up with this attitude being foisted upon you daily at a later stage.
Overspending or extreme tightness with money.
Immature tit-for-tat ways of dealing with conflict such as cancelling on you because you cancelled on him.
Criticising you, especially in front of others. Embarrassing you in any way in public.
A sense of entitlement or an aggressive approach to life. A person should be confident, but they shouldn't feel like their needs come before everyone else's.
Thanks for your advices. Bluddy - yes, think I'd be a bit suspicious about that one
Criticising your family or friends.
Telling you how to do things if you haven't asked for advice ("you don't want to do it like that...") and generally knowing best about everything.
Monopolising conversations and not letting other people get a word in, especially if they talk about themselves a lot and they always apparently excel in everything.
Making decisions without consulting you. Sometimes it's nice to be surprised but not when the surprise means turning up unexpectedly when they know you've arranged to go out or appearing when you're on a night out without them claiming it's some kind of romantic gesture.
Refusing to make plans but expecting you to drop everything to see them as soon as they deign to tell you they're available.
Any behaviour that makes you uncomfortable, irritated, embarrassed or afraid. Unless you feel that you can object to the behaviour and when you do so, the person apologises and makes an effort not to repeat it (there are a few grey areas eg someone might be embarrassed if a date drinks too much but that might be out of nervousness in an otherwise lovely person and it might not happen again).
A relationship that feels like hard work/duty/a penance: dump and move on. A couple-relationship is supposed to make your life better and more enjoyable, not worse.
What HerHissyness said-there should be a high school class on this for guys and girls.
What SGB said.
You can get to the point that you don't need to name and analyze the toxic dynamic (but it is a good knowledge to have); the alert based in your feelings is enough to justify to yourself to disconnect.
To say again: the most important thing to be aware of is yourself, your self-respect, and existence. Being treated like you don't exist (#19 above) is a big red flag for me.
Lying about anything esp where there is no logical reason for it.
Blowing hot and cold
Bragging about being violent or treating ex girlfriends badly.
Tells you he has little respect for women but that you're different
Anything that makes you feel crap even if you don't understand why
I would go so far as to say watch out for compliments that give the impression of over-familiarity (at the risk of sounding like QE 2 there). If someone feels he has a right to make any sort of comment about your appearance/clothing/makeup/weight very early on then he is testing your boundaries.
A really nasty/messy break up.
Slagging off their ex.
Lying, even about minor things.
Being extremely tight with money.
"I don't see my kids because... (insert excuse here)".
Men who don't have any good friends
Not seeing their children
Not financially supporting their children
Really really hating their exes
Drug use, esp cocaine
Pushing the boundaries. Hmm, how to explain? I probably can't right now..
Questioning your judgement in a critical way, esp very early on
Racist or generally derogatory attitudes. You might have to educate this ignoramus from scratch. Or might have to justify your friendships
Putting a woman on an unrealistic pedastal. Needy red flag alert
"My life was nothing until I met you" another needy alert
Anything that strikes my fair and honest character as being a fucking liberty
When you notice they're less than honest with people sooner or later they'll lie to you too.
everything everybody else said
he "can't live without you"
he "doesn't want to share you"
you are "so much better/fitter/nicer/less neurotic etc than his ex(es)"
doesn't like (or can't cope with) animals, children, disabled people or old folks
there are flippin' hundreds
every loser has their own special and unique blend of magic
Supporting Manchester United
Neurotic about your past love life, or has nothing nice to say about his exes.
Doesn't like animals.
Drug using/needing to 'ave it large' at the weekend by binge drinking.
Lying; no matter how big/small the lie.
Anyone who 'loves travelling' (personal thing).
oh wisedup, how right you are.... <slaps forehead>
Surely you just go by your gut instinct at any one time?
I think a lot of people would tick one red flag box at some time in their lives- maybe for a few minutes!
Looking for red flags seems a bit negative. Like starting from a " he must have isshoos" position and not looking for the good in people.
strawberry, I think the point of the list is for people who don't always hear their gut instinct.
Mirroring your behaviour - trying too hard to seem just like you.
Extreme hyperactivity - inability to sit down and have a conversation does not bode well for a relationship.
Any kind of control freakery - e.g. ordering wine without asking your opinion.
Playing the pity card - a favourite trick of abusers (Martha Stout - The
Sociopath Next Door)
Disrespectful behaviour - turning up 25 mins late for a first date with no
reasonable excuse (just chatting!) How I wish I'd run away!
Arrogance - sometimes mistaken for confidence - look out for how they treat shop assistants, taxi drivers, the unemployed etc., not just waitresses.
Likes to call other people 'pathetic' - they of course are superman/woman.
Huge sense of entitlement of everything - attention, time, money etc.
Trying to knock your confidence - they need to bring you down to their level, e.g. belittling, describing you in ways which are not true, or unfavourable comparisons with others' looks/skills
Pushy, ignoring boundaries - especially sexually.
Total switch in personality - from Mr Nasty to Mr Nice - very chilling.
Too charming - but this can come across as being very down to earth, affable, man of the world raconteur type - it does not always appear OTT.
Too stingy or complete spendaholic or happy to spend on fun things but tries to get out of paying for necessities of life.
Champagne tastes on beer income.
Ignoring you, not listening, silent treatment
Phones, texts far too much - expects you to answer immediately everytime.
Refusal to take blame/responsibility for anything but magnifies your faults/weaknesses/mistakes (or jokes continuously about them)
Likes to do their own thing but not too happy when you do the same
Grudge doing anything for you even if you very rarely ask (you must not ask 'God' for a favour don't you know)
Most important of all:
Your gut doesn't like him - you feel vaguely uneasy, unsafe, fearful, think he's a bit of a creep etc. Sandra Brown (How to Spot a Dangerous Man) is very insistent on women listening to their instincts which they sometimes override because of social conditioning, lack of confidence etc. A lot of abused women had some reservations about their future abuser but did not listen to the messages from within.
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