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Primary school teachers - help please?

(40 Posts)
seeker Wed 08-Jul-09 08:15:57

If a child was a level 3 at KS2 SATS, what would you consider broadly acceptable progress by the end of year 3?

MIAonline Wed 08-Jul-09 08:32:17

Expected progress is 2 mini levels so for example 3c to 3a. 3a to 4b and so on.


seeker Wed 08-Jul-09 16:25:08

So i thought. We have lots of parental muttering in our playground because some of last years level 3s have made 4c this report, and the pushy lot are saying that if some, why not all. I have to listen to parental mutterings because I'm Governor and they mutter directly at me.

If your child got a 3 at KS2 SATS would you mutter at a 3a in year 3?

bequiet Wed 08-Jul-09 16:36:51

3s at KS@ can be 3c, 3b or 3a, but the sublevel is not reported. Obviously dcs who got 3b/ba at KS@ will be the ones to get 4c now.

bequiet Wed 08-Jul-09 16:37:25

KS2 blush

clutteredup Wed 08-Jul-09 16:39:22

Could they not just get lives of their own rather than judging themselves by the achievement of their children? By all accounts the children are doing well so the school is clearly providing for them -- what exactly are they aiming to achieve - at this rate they'll be expecting level 7 for Year 6!!

seeker Wed 08-Jul-09 17:07:14

Couldn't agree more. But I have a different hat on here!

throckenholt Wed 08-Jul-09 17:19:34

as a governor I think it would be useful to ask the head to explain how this all works (ours has just been through the tracking system, and the latest results for all years).

I don't think it is unusual to get a 3 at KS2 and a 3a at end of Y3. As long as by the end of Y$ they are getting 4b or there abouts then they are on track. The teachers and head should be keeping an eye on this and should be feeding this back to governors.

Also they often say kids plateau in Y3 - so may only make one sub level in the year and then jump 2 in the next term or two of Y4.

throckenholt Wed 08-Jul-09 17:20:42

that should be 3 at KS1 (not KS2 !)

cazzybabs Wed 08-Jul-09 17:24:00

No .. there is a dip as they change key stage...and may just be a levek 3 in 1 sats and just off a level 4c at end of year3.

Still puts them in line for level 5s at Year 6

Feenie Wed 08-Jul-09 17:57:17

Not true, Cazzybabs - they have to be a solid level 3 to be assessed as such in Key Stage 1 Teacher Assessments. Now that only the teacher assessment is reported there is no 'scraping' level 3.

Furthermore, the level 3 has to be arrived at using the school's own assessment systems, used throughout the school - so a level 3 is a level 3 is a level 3!

Could still be slightly different in separate
infant and junior shools, but shouldn't be.

Feenie Wed 08-Jul-09 17:59:16

Seeker, how is the Y3 assessment arrived at? Is it teacher assessment?

seeker Wed 08-Jul-09 18:07:45

yes, teacher assessment. My understanding that any Level 3 in KS1 was a nominal 3b - so a solid level 3, no scraping in! So if that is true, then these children have only made 1 sub level of progress. Because it is common knowledge that they are supposed to make 2 sub levels a year, that is why parents are concerned (to put it tactfully!)

Feenie Wed 08-Jul-09 18:14:07

Some authorities (mine included) insist on 3b to achieve level 3 at KS1. It's not statutory though, and depends on the LA; my niece's school reported 3cs for her last year.

3 APS is satisfactory progress, and 4 APS (2 sublevels is good progress, so I'm not sure about 'supposed' to make 2 sub-levels. These children could be solid 3as and shaky 4cs at the moment - would still be satisfactory progress.

cazzybabs Wed 08-Jul-09 19:45:01

yes but that is my point Feenie... also there is a lack of consistency from school to school even though they are supposed to be externally moderated

Feenie Wed 08-Jul-09 19:46:38

hmm Sorry, what is your point? Don't think seeker is talking about separate schools.

Goblinchild Wed 08-Jul-09 19:50:33

The national expectations are 2b at Y2, 3b at Y4 and 4b at Y6.
So that's three sublevels' progress over two years. Either one sublevel, then two, or two sublevels, then one.
Of course there are above and below average children, and that alters the data, depending how many there are of each variety within a cohort.

Goblinchild Wed 08-Jul-09 19:52:22

>and the pushy lot are saying that if some, why not all.

grin Like sausages of consistent and measurable quality in a sausage factory?
Bit dim those parents.

mrz Wed 08-Jul-09 19:53:14

KS1 levels are teacher assessed unlike KS2 which are externally marked.
I know our Y2 teacher has awarded level 3s for very borderline children hmm

seeker Wed 08-Jul-09 19:54:24

Ah, but don't forget, pushy parents are always the ones whose children are "very bright" and only don't perform because the school doesn't "stretch them enough"!

singersgirl Wed 08-Jul-09 19:58:46

Yes, at our school the children have to be a solid Level 3 in Y2 to get a 3 awarded, but then on entry into Y3, they are all assumed to be 3c, simply because Level 3 at KS2 covers different things (and more things) than L3 at KS1. This is also to do with the value-add score.

I've also been told that, in our school, the Y3 teachers are not supposed to give L4s any more (perhaps they do in exceptional circumstances), because they found they had a problem with showing value-add if the children make too much progress early on. If they are already at a 4 in Y3, they can't demonstrate adequate progress even if they get a high 5 in Y6 - they've still not progressed enough sub-levels. I have just had precisely this discussion with two Y3 teachers, because they've changed their reporting guidelines since DS1 was in Y3. They also used to report sub-levels in Y3, but have decided not to do so any more.

But this really does show that you can't compare performance between schools, as different rating systems may be used.

I know Seeker's example was within her own school. There is a lot of consolidation in Y3 and DS1, who only went up one sub-level from 2a to 3c in Y3, progressed massively the next year and is one of the strongest in his year in maths now. So tell 'em all not to worry.

Feenie Wed 08-Jul-09 20:31:47

"Level 3 at KS2 covers different things (and more things) than L3 at KS1"

Sorry, it doesn't. The Y2 teacher has to use the same assessment criteria as the Year 3 teacher - if there are discrepancies, it's because of incorrect teacher assessment, which is an individual school's own training issue.

No wonder they won't trust us to do the same with KS2 SATs! This system of KS1 teacher assessment has been up and running for 5 years now, and should be fully bedded in.

Who moderates your Y2 teacher's work, mrz? External LEA moderators will be very unhappy if she/he does her own. It should be a senior manager's job to support her assessment (I moderate our writing in Y2 and Y6). We have regular moderation meetings in writing, Maths, (and will do so soon for Science) to ensure consistency of levelling and teacher assessment.

Feenie Wed 08-Jul-09 20:33:15

Regular moderation meetings for whole school, that is.

mrz Wed 08-Jul-09 20:57:14

They have been moderated as "borderline" level 3s and reported as level 3.

Feenie Wed 08-Jul-09 21:06:37

hmm How can you moderate a borderline level 3? Either there is lots of evidence to suggest they are level 3, or there isn't.

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