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Can the school stop me collecting my child 1 pm a week? (SN related)

(35 Posts)
DobbinsVeil Thu 31-Jan-19 19:50:41

The TLDR: DS3 is in Yr1, has ASD. I have recently been turned down for an EHC needs assessment, currently appealing. Forest school going very badly, I want to collect him after lunch and take him home so he misses it, until some support can be sorted out.

Long story:
He has really not settled well in Yr1, and has had a number of meltdowns at school. Gets very out of control, very quickly.

Transitions are a huge issue, particularly for lessons taught by staff other than the class teacher. Forest school is the biggest problem as he struggles with the concept of an outside lesson (inside= lesson outside=playtime). He had stopped going, was going into another class with the teacher he really likes.

Class Teacher has been persuading him to go again by offering him a choice of something he likes less (I am not sure what this thing is).He flipped out totally this week when he had to get his coat on. Class Teacher took him to Yr6 and left him there for the duration. He spent the entire 2hrs+ shouting and disrupting the lesson (no TA in that class, just the class teacher). taken back to his classroom to get changed where he flipped out totally again and I had to go and get him. Had to carry him out no shoes/socks etc with my 4 year old carrying his bags etc.

Teacher rang me to explain, was very annoyed he had disrupted the Yr6 class so badly. She has PPA at this time so he has to go somewhere else. There is no one else to look after him.

I do see the school's POV, but from mine I just don't feel comfortable about this kind of repeat. It's not fair on the other class or DS3 tbh. So I've said until such a time as he can have some extra support, I'll collect him at lunch. This is being "considered". But do I need their permission to bring him home?

danni0509 Thu 31-Jan-19 19:58:40

The school sounds rubbish! @DobbinsVeil

What on earth, taking a yr 1 (asd) child to a yr6 classroom and just leaving him to it with no support?! They have to find someone to support him, tough shit!

What support do they provide without the EHCP?

Are you happy with the school usually?

danni0509 Thu 31-Jan-19 20:01:17

The teacher ringing you to complain is bang out of order aswell.

He wouldn't of kicked off and been disruptive if they were supporting him like they should.

Arseholes.

Jackshouse Thu 31-Jan-19 20:02:49

I would have a meeting with the senco to dicuss next steps. The plan for him to not do Forest school and to working someone else’s classroom sounds good to me though.

Luzina Thu 31-Jan-19 20:03:08

Ask to see the SENCO to discuss it. They should be able to sort out more support for him

DobbinsVeil Thu 31-Jan-19 20:04:53

It's the behaviour policy to be taken to another class if misbehaving, he jumped off a desk in Yr5 last week!

Current support is phonics group and handwriting group. A dictaphone to help with his working memory problems. They've given him a blanket which he won't now use (as he doesn't like to cross his legs. he doesn't have to cross his legs, but as that is the rule for sitting on the carpet, he can't be convinced otherwise). They did try giving him TA support for 2 mornings, but he didn't respond to it. (DS3 thinks a TA is there to take him away and for the class teacher to bring him back again, not for doing work with). A Tent was promised but not materialised, ditto for his own visual timetable.

Not usually happy, but no other option apart from Home Ed due to complicated logistics (DS1 has SN and has LA transport that I have to be home to meet).

Matildatoldsuchdreadfullies Thu 31-Jan-19 20:07:00

I don’t think the school will argue - particularly if you make sure he’s registered.

But as a year 1 teacher I would be unhappy, because I ‘d feel this solution is at best a sticking plaster, and that I was failing your son. I think this may be a warning sign about the school’s willingness and ability to support your son adequately.

DobbinsVeil Thu 31-Jan-19 20:09:33

To be fair, teacher didn't just ring to complain, she rang to explain what had happened, as I had to chase him around the classroom and carry him out and I also need to get home asap for DS1's taxi.

Head is SENCO but is going to be off for a while. They've got a temp person who started this week who is going to be dealing with SEN stuff, but obviously very new and is only 2 days a week. Won't be back in until the day after Forest school, hence me wanting to at least take him out next week.

I am trying to get a meeting etc, but my question is, can they stop me taking him? he isn't doing any work when taken to another class, he's just to sit there. Which doesn't happen because he's still having a meltdown.

Youmadorwhat Thu 31-Jan-19 20:09:42

That school sounds like it is doing nothing for him at all!! Can you find a more suitable school?

Youmadorwhat Thu 31-Jan-19 20:15:50

Sorry I just saw that moving is not an option. Hopefully the EHC needs assessment will be granted soon. More in class support would be great. I think the school needs to rethink the behavior policy when it comes to your DS, it’s clearly not working. Also go in and demand a visual timetable be used on the wall near his desk, one that he can be in charge of in the morning etc with the teacher. They should have that done long ago!!

Redpine Thu 31-Jan-19 20:15:50

My DD was spending 2 hours sitting in a corridor alone each school afternoon. As soon as I found out I started collecting her after lunch.

The school suggested a reduced timetable for a fixed period. Is the forest school a permanent thing or does it run for a set period?

Xiaoxiong Thu 31-Jan-19 20:17:08

Have I understood this correctly - so if a Y1 kid is misbehaving, school policy is to take them into another class of Y5 or Y6 and leave them there while that lesson is going on? How on earth is that supposed to work?? Surely that just dumps a misbehaving kid on another teacher who is in the middle of teaching a lesson to another year group. Any scope for changing schools, especially if the head is also the senco and it sounds like they're off sick?

Redpine Thu 31-Jan-19 20:18:11

And do you want to collect him or do you want an acceptable alternative to forest school?

museumum Thu 31-Jan-19 20:21:15

I can’t see how a school could stop you taking your child out even if you had no good reason!
You do have a very good reason.

Redpine Thu 31-Jan-19 20:21:45

Xiaoxiong it does sound like a duff policy for misbehaviour but even worse for a child whose needs are not being met!

Lougle Thu 31-Jan-19 20:29:57

The idea of such a policy is to embarrass the child into behaving better by showing them that they don't get positive results from behaving badly and they are shown up by having to sit with another class. It's going to do nothing of the sort for a child with ASD. It's just going to further discombobulate them.

Teachers don't get much ASD training, to be fair, but if I was a teacher and I had a child in my class with ASD, I'd at least damn well Google ASD, even if I didn't get much training, and I'd be having several meetings with the parents to find out how to meet the needs of that child.

What's most frustrating is that a lot of things that make the most difference cost nothing and just require a bit of thought and organisation. ASD is not an expensive thing to manage, it just takes care and consideration.

cantkeepawayforever Thu 31-Jan-19 20:32:34

That sounds, tbh, all round astonishingly poor.

Is he on their SEN register, at a level below EHCP?

What are his individual targets, and what is his individualised provision to meet his needs?

Remember that the school should be spending up to £6,000 (I think) from its 'notional SEN budget' to meet the needs of a child with SEN, even if they do not have an EHCP. The provision you describe does not sound as if it meets that threshold, so would asking for a TA to support him for that 1 afternoon work?

The school has to do their best to meet his needs - look at the SEN Code of Practice here to see whether they are doing what they should and what they must.

DobbinsVeil Thu 31-Jan-19 20:35:11

I think there is a class visual timetable his own one has yet to materialise.

The send to another year applies to all years apart from reception. The Yr 5&6 also have a fair few disruptive pupils who regularly get sent to other classes. (My older DC now at secondary said they'd have a couple sent in every day). Unlike DS3 they tend to sit quietly!

There is an Executive Head who I spoke to on Monday. Was promised she'd look into the issues I raised (this was prior to the Forest School incident this week) but not come back to me.

Forest school is permanent. I'm happy to collect him tbh.

Thanks all, hopefully if I collect after pm registration they shouldn't be resistant

bookmum08 Thu 31-Jan-19 20:38:32

Could you go in for one of the Forest School sessions with your son? He could be told that you are interested in seeing what the class does because you "never had forest school when you were a little girl" and totally 'big up' everything they do - "oh WOW the class has made a bug hotel. How FANTASTIC. Aren't the bugs LUCKY?". Could some parts be crossed over to at home - growing plants etc. Try and get him to see this is just a part of school as much as writing and maths. Does he cope OK with outdoor PE?

DobbinsVeil Thu 31-Jan-19 21:38:00

X-posts

I've had several meetings with the teacher and SENCo but it doesn't matter how much I explain, they just think they can talk to him and that will fix everything. I get the impression the Forest School (and PE and Mandarin) related behaviour is viewed as a choice DS3 is making which they are determined to break.

I had a private Ed Psych go in but of course he was having a wonderful day! Report does give recommendations but I doubt anyone's actually read it.

He is on SEN register. The area we're in has something called One Plan which includes IEP type targets. LA mentioned on refusing the EHC need assessment that DS3's One Plan was weak and have offered training.

They are pretty poor on recording incidents etc and were late to submit paperwork for the EHC Needs request and ignored the LAs emails and phonecalls! They've done 2 referrals to ask for ASD Specialist Teacher support but I don't think it's been chased up. I've been in contact with Sendiass who are going to set up a meeting with the school and LA, but that will take time to coordinate and I just need to do something short-term.

I'd really rather not go in and support him in forest school. I'm aware this sounds awful, but I had to with nativity rehearsals and he just clung on to me and wouldn't participate. I don't think the school would want me to be in there either.

He rarely participates in PE and if he does he usually ends up taking off his shoes and throwing them. I have of course tried talking to him about Forest school, but he is very rigid in his thinking. He can be hit or miss on things like maths and writing too.

Ohhgreat Thu 31-Jan-19 21:47:22

If you don't want to make a point of picking him up to avoid forest school, and just need a solution for this week, tell school he has an appointment? And get a plan in place for future weeks when you meet the new senco.
You sound like you have a lot to cope with and are doing an amazing job!

cantkeepawayforever Thu 31-Jan-19 21:59:23

If they are poor at reporting incidents, then when you find out about them, e-mail a summary to the SENCo / Head every time.

'Just wanted to check my understanding of an incident today: X was asked to participate in PE. He refused and threw his shoes. If this is incorrect, please could you let me know by return?'

That way, you have a dated record of as many incidents as you can manage (can also use it for incidents reported later 'I gather from a conversation today that last Tuesday, X was sent to class A where he shouted and disrupted their lesson for 2 hours. If this is incorrect, please let me know by return?'). By asking them to correct it by return, rather than confirm, you are less at their mercy - it is a true record unless they dispute it.

Document EVERY phone call or conversation 'Just wanted to confirm my understanding of the conversation we had at 10 am this morning by telephone. I understand that you have requested AST involvement with training but that no date has yet been arranged'.

That way, you have some form of defence against their poor processes / paperwork.

DobbinsVeil Fri 01-Feb-19 17:00:41

I've already told school the reason I'm collecting him and part of the reason is to force the forest school issue a bit with them. Chasing him around the room then carrying him out in such a state was a real low, my poor 4 year old trailing along behind trying to carry bags whilst DS3 shouted his head off with no socks, shoes or coat on! I very much feel like "that" parent with the school and I hate it, but I can't see what else I can do.

I do keep my own records of everything I haven't been doing the confirming thing. They only email is the general admin one but I take the point I need to start doing something, particularly as Head of School is going to be off for a bit, and the Exec Head covers 3 schools.

The teacher called me this afternoon. This was strange as DS3 hasn't been in school today (unwell). She was ringing to let me know the tent is now set up and she was working on his visual timetable. I had mentioned both these things to the new SEN person, whether it's that or they're reading this thread I'm not sure. <waves cheerily>

Thanks for all the replies and sorry for lack of name-checks!

Gemmalindley Fri 01-Feb-19 17:05:01

Physically no they can’t atop you, what they can do is mark you as absent every single on registration leading in f8nes and court cases. They can be totally out of order and attempt to call social services to say your denying your child to a full term education as well if your not home educating the other ha,f a day. They could even go as far as to ask you to leave as there policy’s don’t promote flexi schooling. It doesn’t sound like the right school for you if there not working with you sad

cariadlet Sat 02-Feb-19 10:11:35

It certainly sound as if the school is struggling to care for and to educate your son effectively.

As far as the actual AIBU is concerned, then the school would be within their rights to say no.

Fulltime education (not full-time schooling because it can be Home Education) is compulsory from the term after a child's 5th birthday. So parents of older children can't insist on mornings only.

Having said that, a school couldn't physically prevent you from taking your son and the way things are going at the moment they'd probably welcome it. A lot of schools suggest reduced timetables for children who aren't coping in class.

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