Appeal advice please: Sibling out of catchment (300m away) but 1st born in Year 1

[Playdohonmysocks]

Hello,

I'm driving myself mad with the amount of research I'm doing and taking on board the advice I'm being giving (more than when I had a newborn and that's saying something!)

With regards to us being out of catchment:

We live 300m away from our closest school and I can get to the school gate in a 1 minute walk. It's one of the best in the area and has notoriously been oversubscribed. We are the first house on the road from the official catchment. Our catchment school is approximately a 20 minute walk away and there is another very good school approximately a 15 minute walk away.

In 2016 our 1st born got a place at our closest school. The catchment area had been decreased massively due to it's previous over subscription and we and approximately 8 others out of catchment got into a class of 30.

Those out of catchment with siblings were advised that due to the catchment area being shrunk so much it was highly likely the siblings would get a place. So many of us accepted.

We accepted due to a number of reasons including it was our first child, we really didn't fully understand the long-term ramifications of our decision and we'd have been daft (hindsight hey?) to not accept the school a 1 minute walk away instead of dragging a 4/5 year old on a 20 minute walk.

Since the catchment shrinkage, the last 3 years has seen all catchment children get a place, all siblings (in or out) and everything has been hunky-dory.

This year something has massively changed - and our 2nd child hasn't been offered a place. Neither have 10 catchment children or a further 2 siblings out of catchment.

The school our 2nd child has been offered isn't catchment but the 15 minute walk away. It's a great school, obviously not our first choice, so I enquired if our 1st born could move there and it's a no. Class is full - in all honesty I would rather not do that anyway as fully settled and we all adore the school.

I'm holding out for the waiting list following the refusal ... but I'm guessing we'll be at number 11 due to out of catchment but living the closest out of the siblings.

Unless they all go private and offered children turn down their place ... I know what I'm up against.

There's 2 years between my same sex siblings and although yes I have no idea how I'd split myself in 2, get 2 children to school on time, embrace 2 schools fully, or fund required childcare etc ... I'm not alone and it's not grounds for an appeal.

But if I don't try to appeal for my children so close in age to go to the closest school to our house for the majority of both their primary school life ... I couldn't say I'd given it my best shot.

I'm going to put both on each others waiting list and I've accepted the place so at least I'm not cutting my nose off ...

Emotionally they are inseparable - yes they fight like cat and dog but nothing or no-one would separate them as they're thick as thieves.

My youngest is at the school gates every morning and every evening - thinking that's the 'big school' they're heading for in September.

Eldest cannot wait to have a sibling at school just like all the others - it sounds a bit 'Walton's' - but all siblings come together in groups and all play together at breaks and lunchtime. The majority of playdates etc are with siblings ... it's a close-knit school and I'm just struggling to face that my 2nd may not be a part of this.

I'm not stupid and I know a successful appeal is unlikely, but I also know that sometimes they are granted on the emotional impact on siblings ... therefore is there anyone out there that has any positive stories and top-tips with what to focus on within my appeal? I've written loads but the next day I doubt every point I've made!

Can I use distance? And close sibling attachment?

Thanks in advance for any help!

[PanelChair]

By the sound of it, this will be an infant class size appeal. As such, you can only win if you can point to an error or an irregularity that has cost your child their place. Unfortunately, as I think you recognise, there has been no error. The refusal of a place is the downside of being an out of catchment sibling in a school that can’t even accommodate all the children in catchment.

Give the appeal your best shot but, as you say, unless the waiting lists help you get both children into the same school, you’re going to have to find a way of managing having two children at two schools.

[Playdohonmysocks]

Hi PanelChair,

Thanks for your comments and yes it is an infant class size appeal ... although I did have to clarify this with the LEA as my postal letter stated 'Prejudice' and my online version class size. I should have played dumb and just taken my postal refusal shouldn't I?

The school does have 31 in its current Y1 and Y2 - but both due to exceptional circumstances. Reception currently has 29 due to a child leaving recently, but I'm guessing they'll fill that space shortly.

With regards to the appeal, I'm going to put everything in that I can think of, but I would like to know if there's anything that gets the back up of the panel? Then I will make sure I don't focus on anything that will go against me!

[PanelChair]

There’s nothing that will “go against” you, as such, but bear in mind that the panel will no doubt have many appeals to hear. It’s an ICS appeal, so you need to focus on anything you can find that might indicate that there’s been an error. Explain why you think it’s unreasonable that your child didn’t get a place but be succinct. If you submit a long appeal statement, don’t read it out like a speech but just remind the panel of the key points. Above all, don’t make a long sales pitch on behalf of your child and what an asset to the school they would be - I’m sure that’s true but it’s not what any appeal, let alone an ICS one, is about!

[ArnoldBee]

I don't know if this helps but last year my LEA changed the rules so siblings didn't get priority and after 1 year they had to change the rules back as it causes chaos. 3 children in my son's year won their appeal and the school was directed to admit them going over the PAN and had to also employ another teacher. You can only appeal if their guidance hasn't been followed.

[Playdohonmysocks]

Thanks PanelChair - your advice is very much appreciated.

At the moment my focus is very much on the siblings and how it will effect both of them - the youngest in that not getting a place or joining the school will have a detrimental effect as there are already issues of being the 'under-dog' as in their eyes the eldest gets to do more (this is most certainly untrue but in the eyes of a 4 year old who is desperate to go to school already - I do understand!)

And the effect on the eldest as the majority of classmates have a sibling at school and the expectation has been there and discussed daily in the walks to and from school.

They play 'school' together at home and the eldest dresses the youngest up in uniform to show how it will be soon ... sorry but that's the bit that breaks my heart as a parent. (I'm discouraging this now as not to cause more heartache for any of us!)

They do everything together - shared after school lessons, friendship groups, I'm sure a lot of parents have this too with siblings but I'm dreading telling them if the worst comes to the worst.

Do emotional attachments count for much in appeals?

The youngest would most likely be the one who would have to be in pre/after school groups too as our eldest school is so close to home. So once again ... the under-dog.

It's so tough! But I have no idea what 'works' at appeal and what is totally dismissed (be brutal please - I'm best knowing prior to my submission)

Thanks again

[Playdohonmysocks]

Hi ArnoldBee - that's good to hear. I know the negative stories out way the positive when it comes to appeals but I need to keep my chin up whilst writing my appeal.

The waiting list (which isn't the official one just yet) includes those who are distance too - they have enough children to change the school to 2 form entry, but I really don't know what the stance is with space (they could find it) or funding - this is way over my knowledge?

I'm currently of the opinion that if I role over and don't appeal I'll never know ... at least I'm giving my children the best shot at attending the same school.

[MsJolly]

I wouldn't put the youngest in before and after school club-that's not fair, they will be shattered. You should at least share it, so one does before school and one does after school.

[Playdohonmysocks]

MsJolly - I totally agree but my eldest school doesn't have a breakfast club and a long waiting list for the after school club too so my youngest really is going to get the rough end of the stick!

[BewareOfDragons]

I would FB locally and see if you could get the other 11 families with siblings who have missed out on board with you to request the county accommodate them within the school as a bulge group. There may even be more. If there were 45 children, they could have two smaller classes, especially if you were all told that there should be no problem for siblings getting in due to shrunken catchment and you relied on their statements when you chose to register your older child there.

Worth a shot.

[Playdohonmysocks]

Hi BewareOfDragons

Would that still be the case that the 3 siblings are out of catchment? The 10 catchment that haven't got a place are first borns.

The problem I see for the 10 first borns is if they have younger siblings - if they accept their 2nd offer school, in the future their siblings will then be out of catchment for the other school and all the schools in our area are really sought after so it's hard for them too.

Ahhh!

[ShowOfHands]

My youngest didn't get into my eldest's school and there were serious safeguarding issues with dc2 attending his given school. The local authority were extremely apologetic and kind and bent over backwards to help but they simply could not admit him on appeal.

ICS appeals shouldn't be won on the grounds you list but you must try as you never know what the appeal might bring to light.

[prh47bridge]

Do emotional attachments count for much in appeals

I'm afraid not. There would have to be expert evidence (i.e. doctor or similar) that your youngest has a much stronger need than other children of her age to be with her older sibling. Even then, that shouldn't work in an ICS case.

As it is an ICS case the only thing that really works reliably is showing that there has been an error and your daughter should have been admitted. It is worth looking into what has happened this year. Is it that there are a lot more children in catchment than normal, are there a lot of children with EHCPs or has something gone wrong with the process? If it turns out that they've slipped up and admitted the wrong children that gives you a real chance of success.

Things to avoid:

• don't say negative things about the allocated school
• don't talk about the school's Ofsted rating
• don't say or imply that your daughter needs a good school
• don't talk about what an asset to the school she will be
• don't say that your daughter won't go to school unless you get this school
• don't say anything that might come across as trying to bully the panel
• don't show the panel photos of your daughter

Those are the things most likely to annoy the panel.

Keep it simple and, if you can't find any mistakes, concentrate on explaining why this is the right school for your daughter and how she will be disadvantaged if she doesn't attend.

It is possible that evidence of a mistake will emerge during the hearing. But be realistic about your chances. This is a long shot. You won't lose anything by trying but the chances are it won't work.

However, I come back to the question as to what has happened this year given that it is apparently so different from previous years. You need to find out more about that.

[admission]

The fact that there are 13 pupils without a place at the school who are in catchment or have siblings does tend to suggest that something has happened. It could be as simple as there were an enormous amount of siblings in catchment or it could be an indication that something has gone wrong with the allocation.
If it is about a high number of siblings, then the school office will know that and a discrete word may at last rule that in or out as a reason. The alternative is I am afraid to look to get both of the children in one school but that might now be a fair distance away. It is however I think something you need to investigate as a priority.

[Playdohonmysocks]

Hi everyone,

Sorry I've not been back here in the last few days ... I've been doing lots of research and contacting as many people who can advise me as possible.

Thanks prh47bridge for the tips - I'll certainly be taking them on board (shame I can't use photos as I'd surely win then! ;o))

Can I ask if you've been through this or do you work on appeals? It's just I've been advised that the future mental and emotional wellbeing of both my children is a big factor to focus on so I'm feeling a little confused. Any advice gratefully appreciated.

Admission - the issue is a huge sibling year. I don't know if any errors have been made or if indeed any out of catchment children with or without siblings got offered a place - can I request this information from the LEA? I do know in the past out of catchment children have been offered places over catchment but somehow this has been rectified ... although I've never heard of a place being withdrawn.

I've also been in touch with the LEA to find out if there are any primary schools in the area with a place for both a reception and upcoming year 2 ... and there are none.

On countdown to waiting list now - released May 1st, but I'm guessing it won't be a true reflection as all parents are advised to accept their offers just to make sure they secure a place for their child.

I'm still doing as much as I can ...

[prh47bridge]

Can I ask if you've been through this or do you work on appeals

Yes to both.

I've been advised that the future mental and emotional wellbeing of both my children is a big factor to focus on so I'm feeling a little confused

If you have expert evidence to support your case (e.g. a letter from a relevant professional giving their opinion) and this was an ordinary prejudice case I would agree. Without expert evidence it is difficult to convince an appeal panel that siblings need to be together. And in an infant class size case, even with expert evidence, it is not an argument that should win. You need evidence that a mistake was made.

can I request this information from the LEA

The LA and the school must answer any questions you ask to help you prepare for your appeal.

[Lougle]

@Playdohonmysocks, to declare my interest, I am a former panel member for one of the largest counties in the country (but that in itself means little, because each LA does things differently).

The point made by about parents who accept another out of catchment school, then their siblings don't get into that school is known as "displacement". Many LAs, but not all, have started to introduce 'displaced sibling' criteria, which allows for a sibling of a child who was allocated an out-catchment school because there was no place in their closest in-catchment school, to be treated if they were a sibling of an in-catchment sibling, and therefore being so prioritised in the admissions criteria. Of course, this only applies if a school has sibling priority criteria.

With an ICS appeal, prejudice should not come in to it. However, if you were assured that siblings always get placed, and if you were encouraged to apply on that basis 2 years ago and if you can demonstrate that year upon year, upon year, siblings have been accepted (which itself isn't a strong grounds at all, but linked with your claim that you were actively encouraged to apply with the assurance that sibling entrance would be 'highly likely', and there are 3 of you all saying the same thing), I would be inclined to have a shot at arguing that you had a reasonable expectation of a place, and had been led down this path 'on a promise' of sorts by those who should have known better, and that if they hadn't, this would never have arisen.

I would then argue that as you are 300m from the school, have a child there already, would have to pass the school to take your other child to the new school, and that the younger child has grown up knowing that this is 'their big school', because you were told to apply for this school and sibling entrance wasn't going to be an issue, that it is unreasonable to send them to any other.

Now, I can't pretend this will be an easy sell. It probably, and almost certainly shouldn't fly, but the definition of Unreasonable is the one that is open to slight interpretation, and you may find the panel decides that you've been led down a path of inevitable disappointment, but not of your own making, and they should rectify that for you.

[Lougle]

"I've been advised that the future mental and emotional wellbeing of both my children is a big factor to focus on so I'm feeling a little confused"

It would be if this was a KS2 (years 3-6) prejudice appeal, where it would focus on balancing the need for a place against the school's difficulties in accommodating the child. But this is an ICS appeal, so the rules are very strict, and really, it's only if a mistake has been made that wins you a place.

[Playdohonmysocks]

Thanks prh47bridge, and I do hope you won your appeal.

I have a few more questions to ask the LA today ... I think they'll be sick of me come appeal time!

Lougle - thanks for your reply too. Unfortunately I'm not sure if the catchment school had a place or not at the time (I will assume they did) we were offered our local school in 2016 and we took the one minute walk option due to a number of reasons - alongside it's arguably the best school in the area (but only just as they're all great).

I also think I'm up against it as I think I'd probably describe the siblings getting in as a very good bet (hindsight hey?)

I'm going to try and find out if any out of catchment siblings have got a place this year

Fingers crossed

[Playdohonmysocks]

To all those who do/have worked on appeals ... please can you let me know if lodging my appeal prior to the waiting lists being revealed makes any difference whatsoever to the waiting list?

Waiting list is out 1st May and deadline for appeals is 15th May.

Just working out if it's it worth submitting my appeal prior to the 1st in the hope it 'could' move us up the waiting list?

Any advice gratefully appreciated.

[NotAnotherJaffaCake]

Not appeals related but if there is a large number of siblings who have lost out, then get your local district and county councillor on board to lobby for a bulge class. Ours have been instrumental in getting our County to make decisions which benefit the community, rather than them just sitting in an office making somewhat arbitrary decisions about who goes where. Spinning the issue of having to be in two different places for two children is a good way to go.

[Playdohonmysocks]

NotAnotherJaffaCake - thanks for your comment. I've been in touch with our local councillors and their advice so far is to appeal.

My problem is that the order of admissions has changed and catchment first borns are above out of catchment siblings

In doing (A LOT) of research I've just found out that in 2016 my child (out of catchment) was offered a place over an in catchment class mate. I have absolutely no idea how this happened but luckily the little boy was number 1 on the waiting list and he got in.

My child wasn't the only out of catchment offered before this little boy so I've no idea how the allocations worked that year!?!

I'll do some research on bulge classes ...

Thank you

[Playdohonmysocks]

Me again!

For those in the know ...

Please can you advise what the following means and if the info could help in my appeal?

2014 - 6 appeals lodged. 1 granted on Grant ICS2. 1 refused. 1 withdrawn. 3 refused on ICSP.

2015 - 4 appeals lodged. 1 granted on Grant ICS1. 3 refused on ICSP.

2016 - 4 appeals lodged. 4 withdrawn (this is the year my eldest got in alongside 4 others on distance and 3 out of catchment siblings)

They are under the 'Previous admission appeal statistics' - Transfer appeals results - Primary.

Anyone in the know who can explain if they are positive negative stats? The LA informed me that in the past 3 years all catchment children have been 'cleared' on National Offer Day.

Thanks

[shortgreengiraffe]

Lodging an appeal won't change the waiting list at all.

[PatriciaHolm]

Those previous appeal stats aren't relevant. Appeals don't set precedents, plus you don't know why they won.

And appeals are completely separate to the waiting list.

[Playdohonmysocks]

Thanks Shortgreengiraffe - I'll take my time with my appeal document then.

Also, just found out the 2017 stats.

5 appeals lodged. 5 refused on ICSP. All distance applicants.