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Can my nephew's school refuse to enter him for SAT S??

(45 Posts)
peppajay Thu 09-Mar-17 17:21:06

My nephew's school are refusing to enter my nephew for yr 6 SAT S. He is working at year 3 level and in the practice papers he hasn't been getting any more than 3 right. The school says his low scores would reflect badly on the schools overall percentages. My SIL wants him to be given the same chance as his classmates. Are the school within their rights to do this and can my SIP insist he does them. Many thanks.

CherylBlossom Thu 09-Mar-17 17:25:23

Yes they can. And as teacher I would suggest it's in his best interest. I can't understand why your SIL wants to put him through that. If he's working at year 3 level it will do nothing for his confidence. There is no 'chance' he is missing out on, other than rather a lot of stress.

Floggingmolly Thu 09-Mar-17 17:31:18

The same chance at what? It's not a qualification; it's a means of judging the effectiveness of the teaching.

spanieleyes Thu 09-Mar-17 17:35:25

Last year's ARA said

Some parents may ask a headteacher not to enter their child for the tests. Parents may also ask a headteacher to enter their child for a test when the school has decided this is not appropriate. In all instances the headteacher’s decision regarding participation is final. Headteachers should explain the school’s decision to parents.

5.4 Decisions on participation in the tests
Headteachers don’t need permission when making decisions about participation in the tests.

As part of decision-making headteachers should:

discuss the pupil’s circumstances and needs with their parents and teachers
if appropriate, consult with educational psychologists, medical officers or other specialist staff
If a headteacher decides a pupil shouldn’t take 1 or more of the tests they should explain this decision to the parents. They should also write a report which:

explains why the pupil can’t take some or all of the tests
refers to any action the school has already taken or special support the pupil has been offered
identifies any procedures that they’ve used to analyse and monitor the pupil’s needs and indicate where the information is recorded
identifies whether these circumstances are likely to be long term or short term
A copy of the report must be sent to the:

pupil’s parents
chair of the governing body
Details of the parents’ right to appeal the decision should be included with the report. If a headteacher believes that a parent may have difficulty in understanding the report, they must offer appropriate assistance.

A copy of the report should be placed on the pupil’s educational record.

AndNoneForGretchenWieners Thu 09-Mar-17 17:38:20

If the child is working below the level, then it is not best for the child to make them take the tests. As a PP said, it's not a measure of the child's ability but an assessment of the teaching at the school. There is no benefit to the child.

irvineoneohone Thu 09-Mar-17 17:53:31

Don't you think it's better to spend time to getting basics rather than practicing for the test which is too hard for him?

I would use time wisely and try to get his basic levels raised as much as possible before secondary. If he is excluded, he must be able not to participate in sats prepping as well.

mrz Thu 09-Mar-17 17:58:02

His low scores won't reflect badly on the school.
If he's not entered for the tests it's the same as scoring nil

Pud2 Sat 11-Mar-17 18:21:35

His results will be part of the school's data whether he takes them or not.

AlexanderHamilton Sat 11-Mar-17 18:25:02

Why force a child to sit for an hour X however many papers there are now staring at a paper he can't answer. That would be cruel.

Megatherium Sat 11-Mar-17 18:29:21

Why is your sister so keen on him taking the tests? They aren't done for children's benefit, they're essentially to test the school. It won't affect his secondary school placement or streaming arrangements in secondary school.

flowery Sat 11-Mar-17 18:31:06

If he's not been getting more than 3 right what benefit does your SIL think sitting the tests will give him? confused

TinfoilHattie Sat 11-Mar-17 18:33:35

We don't do SATS in Scotland but I cannot see any positives in putting a child in for any test/exam which they would struggle badly with. The mother would be far better spending her time doing other things with her child, telling him that SATS really aren't that important and focusing on reinforcing the basics.

BigWeald Sat 11-Mar-17 19:15:19

ONLY if the parents think the school will stop bothering trying to teach/progress DNephew once it has been decided he will not take them, would I consider asking them to reconsider.

I often hear that some schools focus all their effort in Y6 on those kids who are borderline. So nowadays borderline 'working at expected level (scaled score 100)', or borderline 'working at greater depth'.
If DNephew were borderline at 'working below what is needed to access the test'/'working at a level just high enough to access the test', so could possibly achieve a scaled score of 85, I suspect such a school would put a lot of effort into this child, as a score of 85 is better than a score of nil.
I don't know if that would be a good thing though.

semanwen Sun 12-Mar-17 00:03:47

Actually school data is best if they sit and score only a few marks. So many schools have decided to put all pupils in for tests this year.

That said Ofsted published guidance on outliers this week so schools can now remove them from progress data.

semanwen Sun 12-Mar-17 00:07:08

His low scores won't reflect badly on the school. If he's not entered for the tests it's the same as scoring nil

Not true on progress. Children who are not entered may have a minus progress.

When considering the key stage 1 to 2 progress scores for schools and pupil groups, inspectors should consider the impact of pupils included who were working below the level of the tests at key stage 2. Pupils on ‘P scales’ or assessed at foundation for the ‘expected standard’ or ‘early development’ of the expected standard, always have negative progress scores. Those assessed at ‘growing development’ of the expected standard can have a positive progress score only if their prior attainment was P6 or below.

mrz Sun 12-Mar-17 06:48:46

"Not true on progress"

Progress will be based on his results in KS1 The OPs nephew will be assessed using the pre key stage standards and these will be reported and used to measure progress.

I would expect that the school have kept parents informed of his "difficulties" and this hasn't been a total surprise?

Any child who achieves less than a 100 scale score will be recorded as working below expectation.

mrz Sun 12-Mar-17 06:53:24

*"*^*Children who are not entered may have a minus progress.*^ *"*

Unlikely to have minus progress from the end of the previous KS unless he achieved considerably above National exceptions in Y2 (i.e. was already working at current Y3 expectations which are higher than when he was in Y2)

irvineoneohone Sun 12-Mar-17 07:56:15

To me, it sounds like school is actually doing favor to your DN, rather than make him face unnecessary pressure/failure. Why is she so keen to enter him?

semanwen Sun 12-Mar-17 08:48:22

Unlikely to have minus progress from the end of the previous KS unless he achieved considerably above National exceptions in Y2 (i.e. was already working at current Y3 expectations which are higher than when he was in Y2)

That isn't accurate.

Children on p scales at KS1 who are then not entered are given a nominal scaled score and have a minus progress.

If you look at the outliers in the KS2 interactive pupils databases they are often L1 pupils at KS1 but they go across the range- it is about the combination of KS1 results and if you have a variation then it adversely affects the progress.

Lots of L2c writers also have minus progress and L2b writers where they got above a L2b in either reading or maths. A L2c in maths who got higher in either of the others will also probably have minus progress.

The progress is calculated by taking an average of reading and writing and then combining it with maths to get an average. So maths is double weighted, so if you maths was higher than either reading or writing at KS1 is causes even more progress issues.

In writing you can only get 79, 91, 103 or 113. So loads of children have a minus writing score even L2c writers at KS1 if they meet the expected of 103 because they are predicted above that - say 104.xx which is impossible to get. A child with 2a across the board at key stage 1 will have a minus writing score if they met the expected standard in writing as they will be predicted at 104.11.

Lots of schools and Ofsted seem not to understand how the progress is calculated.

mrz Sun 12-Mar-17 08:58:51

A child moving from P scales to current Y3 expectations has made considerable progress!

irvineoneohone Sun 12-Mar-17 08:59:18

Now I'm a bit confused, semanwen.
So you think child operating at yr3 level at yr6, can only answer 3 question out of all taking KS2 sats is beneficial to the child?

mrz Sun 12-Mar-17 09:04:52

*The ‘expected progress’ measure*
*"*^*The system of national curriculum levels is no longer used by the government to report end of key stage assessment. The previous ‘expected progress’ measure, based on pupils making at least two levels of progress between key stage 1 and key stage 2, is no longer produced and will not appear in the performance tables or RAISEonline in 2016.*^
^*This measure has been replaced by a value-added measure. There is no ‘target’ for the amount of progress an individual pupil is expected to make. Any amount of progress a pupil makes contributes towards the school’s progress score.*^*"*

semanwen Sun 12-Mar-17 09:08:24

A child moving from P scales to current Y3 expectations has made considerable progress!

Not in the national accountability measures. You have to work it through at child level to see.

A p5 at KS1 who is then assessed as below using the interim pre key stage 2 statements has a big negative progress score.

semanwen Sun 12-Mar-17 09:09:14

Now I'm a bit confused, semanwen. So you think child operating at yr3 level at yr6, can only answer 3 question out of all taking KS2 sats is beneficial to the child?

No I think the opposite.

mrz Sun 12-Mar-17 09:32:30

It would be useful to know if the child has SEN rather than speculating that he has.

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