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Can anyone help with info on exceeding class size and appeals?

(8 Posts)
user1468485204 Mon 18-Jul-16 21:03:56

Hi all,
Very confused here so any info gratefully received
We are trying to make a move to be closer to mum with cancer
All local schools full for son who will need year 2 place in September aside from one.
So that's fab, it's not too far a drive however they don't have a place for other son needing a reception place.
What I don't understand is if I would need to appeal as instead of the usual 30 this school admit 45 per reception intake and divide into one class of 22 and one of 23.
I thought the top number was 30?
Where it seems to become complicated is that when they go into year 1/2 they are mixed so the 90 children are then split into 3 equal groups of 30 so by this point he then would be exceeding the number?
Council not at all helpful and simply stated to move first then call them.
School said they had never had an appeal in all the time she's been there ( 20 years ) so doesn't actually know.
She thinks once they have the 45 in reception they are full and then go onto a waiting list at hope for the best ;(

PansyGiraffe Mon 18-Jul-16 21:22:00

Sorry to hear about your mum and glad that at least one school has a place for Yr 2.

30 is the maximum per teacher - so they must have two teachers in reception with the small classes you mention, and then that's why they split them into mixed year groups of 30 (one class per teacher) higher up.

My understanding is that it would still be a Infant Class Size issue since they can't go to 91 in Year 1, and therefore an appeal wouldn't help. However if you've got a son in Yr 2 then the admission criteria probably give siblings as higher up, so once your son has started you'd be high on the waiting list for a reception place?

PatriciaHolm Mon 18-Jul-16 21:58:20

This would be an ICS appeal, yes, on the grounds of future prejudice - the reception class is fine, but as the other classes in KS1 are at 30, it would still be ICS I'm afraid.

The council could have been more helpful, but if there isn't a space free, they won't do anything until you actually have an address locally. Then they have to find you something, but it won't necessarily be at a school of your choice I'm afraid.

You can appeal of course, but ICS appeals are very hard to win.

user1468485204 Mon 18-Jul-16 22:43:59

Oh no sad
She did say that all local schools have been asked to take 5 more children than usual this year bringing them up to 49 this year instead of 45 but surely that means they're exceeding the numbers for year 1 already?
She said it's so hard to call as 10 kids might move our of the area / be waiting on a different school and just not turn up in September but they just won't know until then.
This is all just awful, we are leaving a secure housing assiciation property for a private let so unstable and now this knock back too

MrsJoeyMaynard Mon 18-Jul-16 22:56:45

bringing them up to 49 this year instead of 45 but surely that means they're exceeding the numbers for year 1 already?

Not necessarily - it's possible that the current year 1 only has 41 children, so the mixed year 1/2 group next year would still be 90, so still 3 classes of 30.

There was a similar situation at my local primary a couple of years ago. They have mixed year group classes. They had a few years where they were undersubscribed, then a year where they were oversubscribed. They took about 7 extra reception pupils on council request before the appeal stage - they were able to do this and still meet infant class size legislation because of the undersubscripton in the previous 2 years, and the mixed year group classes. But the next year, they were oversubscribed again, and this time, the extra pupils accepted the previous year meant that the PAN took them right up to the infant class legislation limits of 30 pupils per class throughout the infant school.

user1468485204 Tue 19-Jul-16 07:26:47

She said they've always taken 45 and have been full to that for the last few years but never over so this would mean come year 1 this year they are over
Is this all too much of a risk then ;(

tiggytape Tue 19-Jul-16 11:11:38

You won't be left without a school place totally. They have to find you one.
If all local schools are full but some a few miles away have places, they will allocate you one there and pay for your child's transport costs.

If literally no school within many miles of your new home has any space in reception at all, they will tell one of the schools that is already full to take your child. This happens only in emergencies when there are no places free at all and is called Fair Access Protocol.

This may mean your child gets a school closer to home but you would not get to choose which school takes him. The council decide which school is best able to cope with another child.

You also have the option of waiting lists - the lists are kept in admissions order so, if living close to the school is one of their admissions criteria and your new house is close to the school, you will be higher on the list than others who live further out but who may have waited longer.

Once you've been offered a place, an appeal for reception where classes have 30 children (or will merge to form classes of 30 children before Year 3) is highly unlikely to succeed. The class size laws forbid this except in rare cases eg where an error processing your application or waiting list position wrongly led to you being denied a place that you qualified for.

admission Tue 19-Jul-16 12:25:26

You do need to establish the facts about the school admissions at this school. If the school have taken 45 fro September and then have 3 classes of 30 for year 1 and 2 , then as PHolmes says it is definitely future prejudice Infant Class Size case at appeal and your chances of getting a place in reception as an in-year application are effectively nil.
However if the school have been asked to and are taking an extra 5 pupils in reception, then they have created a situation where the school cannot claim future infant class size case, because they will clearly have 95 in years 1 and 2 as soon as that "bulge" of 50 moves into year 1. The school/ LA may well be hoping that 5 pupils leave during the next 12 months and therefore being able to work around the problem but they cannot claim future infant class size prejudice whilst they have more than 45 on the books to be admitted in reception, based on their own decision to do this.
If they have 50 in reception in September then the school can only appeal not to admit based on a "normal" appeal process of whether the school can show more prejudice not to admit than the pupil's prejudice to not admit, not anything to do with infant class size.

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