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Help year 1 appeal mixed yr1/2 class

(10 Posts)
3asAbird Tue 05-Jan-16 18:13:52

Total long shot but juggling 2 schools is becoming a huge issue cost,logistic and child happiness.

I have kids at school a reception and year 5.

Due to living just outside catchment middle child failed gain a space so is currently year 1 at school b.

Appealed in sept and Lost on infant class size rule.

Was told couldent appeal again until year 2.

Read circumstances change does that mean ours and what sort if things be valid for 2nd appeal.

I know I'm maybe clutching at straws.

The class middle child would be in is 20 year 1 and 10 younger year 2 so is subject to infant class size.

A year 2 from that class left at Christmas so that class has 29kids.

In theory that year 2space could sit all academic year.

A child is suppost leave year 1 at easter but we no 2 on waitlist no idea who no 1 is but know we currently only sibling on waitlist .

As my middle child's September birthday in sept she would move up to another class mixed year 2/3 mixed key stage apparently not subject to infant class size as predominantly year 2 20 year 2 and 10 older year 2s.

My issue is that year 2 space in year 1 class could remain all year whilst I'm juggling 2 schools.
At easter 2 things could happen year 1 child finally leaves and we get a space.

Or no 1 gets offer and accepts meaning we still stuck doing 2 schools with no chance if fresh appeal until sept 2016 next academic year when she's in year 2.
We been on waitlist since April 2014.

We home educated as got none of our 3 preferences. She eventually got offered reception space in june at 3rd preference which we accepted in hope we win appeal and space come up at year 1.

so do I have grounds to re appeal and could I be successful as they could put a year 2 space is class 3 taking that class to 31 as that's the class not subject to ics rules.

The school is not at full capacity a year 3 left at Christmas so don't think the mixed year 3/2 class is full so that's at 29 also.

Year 4 5 and 6 all have spaces but key stage 2 not subject to infant class size it's common many opt go private later years historically in 3years we been there loads of movement except year 1 which is Teflon.

I'm willing to hire a soliciter if need be as not sure I'm strong enough appeal by myself again last one was brutal I put up good fight .

I have nothing to lose admissions hate me.
Done a usual things

Reported local authority to lgo over non inpartial appeal apparently a local authority governer is no bias!

Spoke to mp who's too busy cheating in his wife and splashed all over the tabloids to deal with my needs.

Short of emailing department of education I'm pretty tired and fed up.

Emails and spoken to councillers.
My counciller very supportive but can't fix it.

Given speech at council meetings.

eddiemairswife Tue 05-Jan-16 19:16:06

What change in your circumstances makes you think you could have a 2nd Appeal? Not sure what your problem is with an LA governor. They can sit on Appeal Panels provided they are not a governor of the school being appealed for, and can also act as presenting officer. You say your child is on the waiting list, so there is nothing more to be done in that direction except to check that you are down with a sibling connection,

tiggytape Tue 05-Jan-16 22:42:32

As I understand it you want a Year 1 place?
A mixed class of Year 1 and Year 2 pupils just had one pupil leave. A year 2 pupil left bringing that class down to 29 so there is now a space?
The school haven't filled that space with another Year 2 and you are hoping it can be given to a Year 1 instead?
But even if that were to happen you are not 1st on the list for a Year 1 place so if that space is going begging, it wouldn't be yours anyway?
Unless another pupil (a Year 1 one) moves at Easter taking the class down to 28, you haven't yet lost out on a potential place by the school's inaction.

If I have read it right you can certainly request another appeal on the basis that the situation has changed (the class is no longer at 30) but given there is a pupil above you on the list, even if they hear the appeal, I do not think you could win since you haven't been deprived of a place that you would have got.

It doesn't matter how many spaces there are in the rest of the school or whether the school is full to capacity overall because even if the older year groups were half empty, they still cannot exceed 30 per class for the younger children. It isn't averaged out overall - it is specific to each year group.

Appeals are often a long shot for children of this age so it may help to also approach the problem from a more practical point of view even if you intend to request another appeal.
Firstly why are you only 2nd on the waiting list? Perhaps the other child waiting is adopted or has some other special priority? They cannot tell you anything about another child but it is worth checking that they realise your child is a sibling and is classed as such. That might put you next in line for a place if they've wrongly categorised your child as not having sibling priority.
Secondly is there anything that can be done (breakfast clubs for example) to make the 2 school runs a bit less awful?
And of course you can appeal again when the Year 3 status means it will be much, much easier to win.

admission Tue 05-Jan-16 23:44:33

Assuming that I have the right MP cheating on his wife then I think that you should get sibling priority with an elder sibling already in the school. You need to check that because to be second on the waiting list the other person must also be a sibling living nearer to the school than you.
However in relation to the current situation, what you need to understand is that it is the year group that you are in that matters not the class situation. So what is the PAN for the year group? It is clearly not 30.
If the year 1 is upto the PAN then the school can legitimately say the year group is full and not admit. This is because they have to allow for the theoretical arrival of a year 2, who would be admitted immediately as they are presumably below the PAN and there is a the available space in the class.
The admission code is also very specific in saying that an appeal panel cannot second guess what class structure the school will have and must not impose such restrictions. As such your idea of moving pupils in year 2 and year 3 classes is not allowed, unless the school themselves agree to it - that is frankly not likely.
I suspect your best cause of action is to wait until June or so and then try and persuade the school to do a re-arrangement for September, when they will be doing a limited set of moves anyway as you have mixed age classes

prh47bridge Tue 05-Jan-16 23:48:38

In my view the situation has not changed anything like enough to justify an additional appeal. The Appeals Code says that a further appeal can only happen in exceptional circumstances where the admission authority has accepted a second application from you due to a significant and material change in your circumstances, your child's circumstances or the school's circumstances. Nothing in your post leads me to believe that there is a significant and material change justifying a fresh appeal.

Whilst there are only 29 in the class at the moment if someone were to apply for a place for a Y2 child the school would have to offer that place taking the class back up to 30. Infant class size rules therefore still apply. Yes they could put the additional child in a Y2-only class but the appeal panel cannot make a decision on that basis. It is for the school to decide how to organise its classes, not the appeal panel. The only way you would win an appeal is if you could show that a mistake has been made and your child should have been admitted. There is nothing in your post to suggest there has been such a mistake. Of course, if they have put your child in the wrong category and they should have been admitted that would be another matter. And if your child should be at the head of the waiting list but another child is admitted that would potentially justify a fresh appeal.

No, a local authority governor on the appeal panel does not mean the panel is biased. Members and employees of the LA are barred, as are members or former members of the school's governing body, but there is nothing to stop a governor (or former governor) of another school being on the panel. Since the appeal panel must include at least one person with experience in education it is not uncommon to find governors or former governors sitting on appeal panels.

If you do manage to get another appeal I would strongly advise against employing a solicitor. You will not get your money back if you win. In my experience solicitors rarely help and frequently alienate the appeal panel, making them less likely to give the benefit of any doubt. And in your case it would be a complete waste of money because I'm afraid I don't see any basis for a successful appeal.

Sallyhasleftthebuilding Tue 05-Jan-16 23:57:17

What is the total Y1 number of Kids
What is the total number of Y2 kids
If ignoring clas split - is there less than 30 year 1 over all?

RafaIsTheKingOfClay Wed 06-Jan-16 00:59:30

IIRC the admissions criteria is something along the lines siblings within a certain distance, children living within a certain distance, other siblings, other children.

Sally I think that the PAN is 20. But this probably won't make much difference if the classes are organised in mixed age classes of 30. Technically yr 1 is full. It wouldn't be normal in that situation to offer year 2 places to any yr 1 applicants. Even if it was, as others have said, that place would belong to the child that is above the Op's on the waiting list. And it would still leave the issue of what to do with any yr 2 children applying in the next couple of terms.

3asAbird Wed 06-Jan-16 06:46:40

Thank you everyone for feedback.

I felt I was clutching at straws.

Yes the the pan is 20.

5 classes

R 20 by themselves

class 2 20 yr 1 10 younger yr 2
Class 3 20 year 3 10 older year 2
Class 4 20 year 4 10 younger year 5
class 5 20 year 6 10 older year 2.

at least twice in 7 years child remains in same class.

classes organised by dob.

Middle child September which means she will spend year 2 ans year 3 in class 3 which is predominantly ks2 ear 3 so jot subject to ics rules council admitted this at appeal.

They also stated it's up to schools discretion how they organise classes providing they don't break ics.

It was head that suggested idea of well they can go over on class 3 ans still a compare the 20th year 2 place and year 3 space that currently exists now 2kids left at Christmas.

My youngest dident initially get Reception space and lost a peak in sept they acknowledged in r he woukd not breech ics as class be at 21 but argued future breech of infant class size despite my argument.

He has sen and current going through ehcp plan process but until that's doen as far as admissions were concerned he has no sen panel were sympathetic.
Thankfully he got a space and due to his needs it's right schopl for him he woukdent be able cope at school b.

Eldest has 1 year and half left and wouldent cope well with move and school b is an infants so no use in getting junior place which is full.

council lied at appeal saying to panel they advised me in that the juniors had a space ans to move eldest we never had that conversation as neither myself or eldest child wished to move to a lesser school.

School could reconfigure classes.
historically there's movement
middle child would only be in class 2 Jan to july
Class 2 technically only class within school subject to ics it's the only year 1 class she could not go into class 3 until sept.

I cannot appeal to new academic year when she's in year 2.

but in theory the class 2 pace year 3 could remain vacant al year as remote village school there's never enough kids who actually live within tiny area of prime responsability to fill all 20 spaces.

I Would say a large proportion of schools intake live outside apr/defined catchment.
Eldest got in on mid year admission.
There lots movement normally and movement on every other year than year 1.

my local authority has local sibling rule as we live outside apr but just over a mile they don't class them as sibling's.
They argue it's right that policy exists as means local kids go local schools but so many kids in County cannot get into local schools .
Also the apr still gives priority to area which for last 3years has had a new school and same distance away.
as schopl sits on border other county kods get priority as nearer.
There a few single intake schools within the county none of them have specific defined school catchment the other schools have cluster catchment so a number of schools within each suburb apr we outskirts of a city my county is urban but also rural.

All the surplus places are in wrong areas.
They building 10,000 homes in County over next 5years but they slow to build to schools or expand school that can in areas of high demand .

I approached mp as department education published proposals tgat siblings stay together ans ics can be breech for siblings.

I wanted know if this policy will be put into action or its just a soundbite.
My mp is conservative and it's a conservative government and my local council is majority conservative controlled.

Instead I get letter quoting local authority position like I have no exhausted all my local options.

Re breckfast club.

Eldest has done breckfast club for a while she's yr 5 no sen costs me 60 quid a month mornings

youngest reception child started yesterday but due to his sen they saying they accept meet his needs even though I feel they can.

School a want him.on time every day last term he was kate at 9.15.

School b has most expensive breckfast club in local area £5.50 a day.
Not sure they have spaces
6 year old does not want to d breckfast club.
she currently does 2 afternoons childminder to balance 2 schools and resents that.

I feel like I'm prioritising other 2 children's needs over hers.

With 3 in breckfast club plus childminder plus one after schools sports activity for year 5 I'm laying out 200 pounds a month wrap around care.

its not the costs that hardest part.

its fact they 2 very different schools
The events and way they run are totally different which upsets middle child as school b has no discos, less trips and at Christmas she could not attend the 1 after school festive event they ran as school b banned parents from bring siblings from other schools in and I could not get babysitter at hours notice they gave me she was very upset.

The wrap around care at school b is tricky and expensive.
The ethos at school b is totally different .

just frustrating knowing there's space in 45 classes within ks1 in class 6 year should be in and that space could stay vacant all year.

We been patiance waiting on wait list since April 2014.

Due to data protection I don't know who 1 is I know they not a local sibling or a Jon local sibling which has no priority as sibling's link non local siblings does not exist in my County it does in neighbouring county .

I suspect no 1 is child in nearby county as she was no 1 past year her mum assures me they happy at school they got but you never know.

The year 1 child suppost be leaving is meant to be emigrating which is long leg thy process they were meant leave after xmas.

no other child in year 1 is lolly to leave yet quite a few keep leaving year 2..

3asAbird Wed 06-Jan-16 06:54:03

Apologies for huge essay and typo errors.

3asAbird Wed 06-Jan-16 07:02:30

Just to reiterated one logical point.

Class 2 is year 1 a year 1 can only go in class 2.

A year 3 could go in class 3 predominantly ks2 20 year 3 pushing class 3 to 31 until july.

Class 3 has had 1 person leave at christmas from year 3.

Class 2 cannot go over 30 class 3 can therefore there's flex accept 1 additional year 1 whilst still accommodating the year 2 ans 3 space if if situation arises.

We just talking jan to july as she would be in class 3 in September when I will do a fresh appeal.

Council are very stubborn even took an appeals panel to high court on 2001 for accepting siblings appeals at another local school.

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