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When should children have learnt all phonic phases?

(19 Posts)
2boysnamedR Thu 19-Nov-15 09:18:37

Ds is in yr three. Supposedly at nc 3b across the board but still learning his phonics?

Seems odd to me

RafaIsTheKingOfClay Thu 19-Nov-15 09:26:22

If the school are using letters and sounds then phases 2-4 are taught in reception phase 5 in yr 1, and phase 6 in year 2. However that's not quite the full story.

Phonics for reading is usually mastered quite early, but it should still be used to teach spelling up through ks1 and 2.

What do you mean by still learning his phonics?

Mashabell Thu 19-Nov-15 09:51:06

The term 'phonics' has acquired a much wider meaning since 2007.
While in the past it used to mean just the teaching of the main spellings for the 44 English sounds and the main pronunciations for the roughly 87 main spellings for them (a, ai, a-e, -ay...on, out....) it is now also used for the teaching of little groups of words with alternative pronunciations (to, do, who) and spellings (shout, out, loud - brown, down, town...). -It pretty much covers all teaching of reading and spelling.

As each of those skills takes an average of 3 and 10 years respectively to master to a modest level of proficiency, the 'new phonics' goes on pretty much forever.

BertPuttocks Thu 19-Nov-15 10:05:27

Our school continues with phonics for spelling until the end of Yr 6.

Mashabell Thu 19-Nov-15 10:36:38

The meaning of the term ‘phonics’ has changed since 2007.

In the past it used to mean just the teaching of the 87 main spellings for the 44 English sounds (e.g. a; ai, a-e, ay; o; ou, ow …) and their main pronunciations. It is now also used for the teaching of all alternative spellings and pronunciations in little groups of words like ‘out, shout, loud’ - ‘brown, down, town’ - ‘do, to, who’. It now covers pretty much all teaching of reading and spelling.

As it takes an average of 3 years to acquire basic reading fluency and around 10 years to learn to spell the majority of common words, the new phonics goes up to the end of primary school and beyond.

2boysnamedR Thu 19-Nov-15 13:24:35

He's still learning phase five phonics

2boysnamedR Thu 19-Nov-15 13:26:19

But his writing / reading / spelling nc level is 3b. Just wondering if this sounds right as I think the other kids in his class finished phase five a while back

LittleMissGreen Thu 19-Nov-15 13:28:08

We continue to teach phonics right through to year 6, even after the initial sounds have been taught. It has made a noticeable difference to our reading/spelling test result scores.

Mashabell Thu 19-Nov-15 15:11:27

Sorry about my post appearing twice. It did not show after my first attempt.

As i said, learning to spell English even just moderately well takes at least ten years. Few pupils are really confident spellers even by 16, and they tend not improve unless regularly taught.

But to call this teaching, beyond a basic level, phonics, is giving the term a completely different meaning to what most parents understand by it.

2boysnamedR Thu 19-Nov-15 16:47:17

I have read that phase six phonics is thought in year two.

If he is still on phase five in year three is that 'normal' ?

Is it 'normal' for a child to be getting national curriculum level 3b across the board to still be on phase five phonics?

My son has Sen. School say he is fine and exactly where he should be. But from what I gather he should have finished phase five by now. It's still a target in his IEP

I would ask school but they have got angry with my constant questions and don't answer them now.

I'm trying to decide if I need to go over the phonics more at home if he's actually at 3b anyway. He can't be behind if he's at a expected level??

maizieD Thu 19-Nov-15 16:54:43

Oh, for heaven's sake, marsha. You do talk rubbish...All this guff about new phonics and only teaching more than 87 (87? Where did you get that figure from shock ) letter/sound correspondences is sheer nonsense.

But at least it is dawning on you the 'phonics' is about a little bit more than 'OneLetterOneSound' correspondences.

mrz Thu 19-Nov-15 17:17:55

Phases 2-4 are reception
Phase 5 Year 1
Phase 6 Year2
Phase1 is continuous from nursery

mrz Thu 19-Nov-15 18:00:18

Sorry not all the posts appeared and I see Rafa had already answered.
No it's not normal for children who achieved level 3 to still be working on phase 5. It would be normal for children in KS2 to be applying phonic knowledge to work on spelling skills.

WombatStewForTea Thu 19-Nov-15 18:50:49

We recap phase 3 and phase 5 in year 3 ascchildren don't apply it in their writing.

Could it be that he has a particular issue with spelling but other areas of his writing are stronger? Spelling is such a small part of writing!

2boysnamedR Thu 19-Nov-15 19:16:17

I think it's because he's dyspraxic and has a language disorder. He can't learn via phonics method and learns by remembering ( memory isn't to great either but something must be working).

I think he's still doing his phase six and repeating some phase five as its not sunk in. Tbh I don't really understand and I strongly suspect he's not really a 3b child.

I have been at appeal for his Sen provision and I think he had to be a 3b to get him off the cost radar. He went into year 3 as a 2b/2a and was a 3b within six weeks.

spanieleyes Thu 19-Nov-15 19:35:56

Is the 3b that has been given an "old" 3b or is it a assessment without levels 3b?
I ask because whilst year 2 were assessed on the old curriculum last year and given old SATS levels, year 3 have not been assessed in the same way for well over a year now and the 3b might well be an assessment under the new system. We use an assessment system ( and it's used widely across the country) where a 3B would mean "beginning to access the year 3 curriculum" which would be the natural progression from a 2b/a at the end of year 2 under the SATS system.

2boysnamedR Fri 20-Nov-15 07:47:51

Ah thank you! I honestly don't know as I didn't know this.

It was presented to me that he had gone up two / three sub levels but maybe that wasn't true and what your saying makes more sense.

So under the new system how do you know if they are falling behind? Should he be a 4b at the beginning of next year?

At what point is he behind? When he is two years below expected levels or is it when falling to move sub levels a year?

It's just making it harder to know how much progress he making and if he needs to come off the Sen register. As that's what the school want

Seryph Fri 20-Nov-15 09:44:10

If he's dyspraxic I wouldn't have any talk about coming off the SEN register. Speaking as a dyspraxic adult in uni!
It's also perfect possible for him to be doing well across the board in literacy with the exception of spelling. I know everyone experiences dyspraxia differently but for me I just couldn't (read: can't!) get some spellings, while I devoured The Lord of the Rings at age nine and was assessed as having a vocabulary in the 99th percentile. Spelling is just a tiny part of literacy, and he will learn coping mechanisms for it if you help him. My SEN tutor suggested trying to picture the word in my head (not great for phonetics but sometimes the only way I can get it). Mum and I practiced spellings by running around the coffee table! Maybe invest in a phonics chart to hang at home and you can both go over it together?
Make sure he's reading too, the more he reads, the better.

2boysnamedR Fri 20-Nov-15 17:05:03

Thank you. I don't want him off the Sen register or to loose his statment ( not moved to ehcp) but the pressure is coming from the school to paint him as normal, adverage. Just trying to keep a step ahead.

He does read quite well. As long as does read I don't mind if it's not via phonics. I'm going to keep up with the phonics at home at try to take what school are saying with a pinch of salt.

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