Process for moving a y1 pupil

[loveisagirlnameddaisy]

My DS is due to start school in 2016 so we'll need to submit our application in the next couple of months. We already have DD at school, currently in Y1.

We have decided to put as our first choice a different school to the one DD is at, for a variety of reasons. I recently had a chat with the head of the prospective school to find out what would be our options for moving DD into that school should DS get a place.

I have always assumed that we would need to do an in-year application and wait for a place to come up naturally. However the head seemed to think that we would instead appeal for a place to be given straight away (or in Sept 2016 when DS starts school). She said that having two children at two schools would carry weight as this isn't ideal.

I have no idea what the procedure is and if she's correct. I guess I may need to contact the local admissions but was wondering if anyone on here had any experience or knowledgeable of this situation?

[eddiemairswife]

You would need to do an in-year application, and if a place is refused then go to appeal; unless,of course, there is a place available which would be allocated when you have applied. Having two children at two different schools would not carry weight at the appeal, as it seems to be your choice to change schools and if it is an Infant Class Size would have no bearing whatsoever.Many headteachers seem to have little understanding of the application and appeal processes.

[loveisagirlnameddaisy]

Thanks eddie, that's what I thought, but wondered if the head knew something I didn't. Can you clarify what you mean in your first sentence as I wasn't aware a place could be refused with an in-year application? You just sit on the list until a place becomes available don't you?

[eddiemairswife]

What I meant was that if there is no room in the school they will not give you a place, but you have the option to appeal. Whether you appeal or not you will still go on the waiting list.

[admission]

I would be careful with what the head teacher is saying, it could end up with you in a right mess admission wise.
If the school is full up to the PAN in year 1, then when you apply you will be told there is no space in that school year. You will be told that you can appeal for a place. If the school year has 30 in the year 1 classes then the appeal will be an infant class size appeal and the only way you can effectively win the case is if a mistake is made. In reality for an in-year admission that is very very unlikely, so the chance of you succeeding is low. If the appeal is not an infant class size appeal then you have to show why this is the best school for your DD. The fact that DS might be starting there in September is not an appropriate reason,you would need much stronger reasons than this.
If DS does get a place for September then DD would be in year 2, which is still an infant class size case if the numbers are such that it counts. If it is not an infant class size case, then you probably have a better case to say you want to both siblings together but there are going to be questions about why you chose this school for DS, knowing that DD went to another school. I still do not think your chances of success at appeal are that high.
When it comes to waiting lists, you need to be aware that many schools do not keep waiting lists other than when it is legally required. For most in-year applications, there are no waiting lists and you name disappears from the school's radar just as soon as you receive the rejection letter unless you appeal. Even appealing you are still only on a list until the appeal finishes.
You need to check with both the school and the Local Authority concerned exactly how in-year applications are handled and whether there is a waiting list.

[loveisagirlnameddaisy]

Sorry eddie, still genuinely confused by what you're saying. I thought that the option for moving a child who already had a place in the LEA, was not to apply for a place at the new school, but to fill in an in-year application form for that school? I did that last year for DD and there was no rejection as such, just a letter confirming that she was on the list and in 7th place.

So, what would i be appealing?

[loveisagirlnameddaisy]

Thanks application for your comments, still confused though. As my comment above to eddie, I didn't think you got rejected with an in-year application. You stay on the list for the academic year and you may move up and down the list.

A friend did this and twice heard that friends of hers (who were also on the list) subsequently got offered places.

So, are you saying that the process in my case, isn't to do an in-year application, but to apply directly for a place (which will then be rejected and which I then appeal)? Why are most people advised to do an in-year application? Thanks!

[PatriciaHolm]

An in year application and applying for a place are the same thing in this case.

You apply. If the school is full, they say no, sorry, no place right now- they "reject"'the application. If they still run waiting lists, you will be put on it.

If at this point you wish to appeal, you do so.

[PatriciaHolm]

Ps - putting you on the waiting list is, essentially, a rejection in this terminology.

[loveisagirlnameddaisy]

Ahh, I see! Ok, that makes sense. We were never technically rejected when we did our in year application, we just received a letter of confirmation that our application had been processed and DD was 7th on the list. Then we didn't hear from them again, but I checked her position a few times by emailing them and was told where she was on the list.

Thanks for the clarification.

So, back to the original question; do you think the head meant that I would appeal being put on a waiting list?

[eddiemairswife]

When you received the letter telling you were on the waiting list it should also have told you that you could go to appeal (against the refusal of a place, not about the waiting list). Is this school its own admission authority? Because it seems that own admission schools are reluctant to inform parents of their right to appeal.

[loveisagirlnameddaisy]

Not sure, I need to check. Thanks for the advice. I know it's a long shot getting DD in.

[admission]

Either the school or the Local Authority are not obeying what it says in the admission code. There is very clear guidance that must be followed when somebody applies for a place at a school. There must be a rejection letter and it must say why your application has been rejected and how you appeal for a school place, not just we will put you on the waiting list.
Find out whether the school is its own admission authority or not - check on the school website under admissions, it will say so somewhere.

[Sallyhasleftthebuilding]

So does the sibling rule only apply to the eldest child? If a sibling has a place does that give you a bump up?

[loveisagirlnameddaisy]

Yes, I think it does bump you up.

[prh47bridge]

So does the sibling rule only apply to the eldest child

Depends. Some schools only give priority if the child has an older sibling at the school. Some give priority if the child has any siblings at the school.

If a sibling has a place does that give you a bump up

If the school gives priority to siblings it will move you up the waiting list but it may not do so until the sibling has actually started at the school - simply having accepted the offer of a place may not be enough.

[loveisagirlnameddaisy]

Do the rules regarding class size change in KS2?

[steppemum]

KS2 - yes.

Infant class sizes are restricted by law, so they can only go over 30 if the council has made a mistake. (rare)

KS2 class sizes are restricted by good practice principles, but the school may, under some circumstances go over 30 to admit a child.
This a at the discretion of the school, and they don't like it.
But also, at an appeal, if the appeal is granted, the school can be required to go over 30.

[loveisagirlnameddaisy]

The school I'm interested has mixed year groups so there's flexibility I think to balance the numbers. Having said that, the head said that there was already 17 children in Y1 (should be 15), the governors had authorised it. Didn't think to ask at the time but I wasn't aware governors had this power unless it's a voluntary aided school?

[Sallyhasleftthebuilding]

If its mixed year, then next years y2 will be mixed with year 3? Leaving recp and y1 mixed? You need to check the figures. Know any parents there?

[loveisagirlnameddaisy]

They have four classes: YR/Y1, Y1/Y2, Y3/Y4, Y5/Y6.

So the only overlap is Y1 where they move the more able Y1s up into Class 2 (as it's known) and leave some behind for the extra year.

[eddiemairswife]

It looks as if the PAN is 15, so the combined years make classes of 30. Don't understand the governors authorising 17 in Y1. How many children in the Y1/Y2 class?

[loveisagirlnameddaisy]

Not sure how many are in the Y1/Y2 in total; the current 17 Y1s are split across Class 1 and Class 2, so maybe it was easier for the governors to authorise those numbers without the total class size exceeding 30.

But I'm also unclear about the governors role. I know in a voluntary aided school (DD is at one at the moment and I'm a parent governor) that they have control over admissions. But in a community school (such as the one I want them both to go to), it all goes through the LEA. Or so I thought?

[prh47bridge]

Or so I thought?

You are correct. For a community school the LA is the admission authority. The school should not make unilateral decisions to admit additional pupils. However, the LA should talk to the governors before deciding to admit beyond PAN. I suspect what happened here is that the governors authorised it in conjunction with the LA.

[loveisagirlnameddaisy]

I thought I'd update this thread for anyone now searching on this topic.

Following our in-year application, we were indeed refused a place as the year was full. However we took it to appeal not expecting to be successful but amazingly we were. The panel seemed very open to our arguments around the school ethos being more suitable for DD and in their summing up letter also mentioned DD being at school with DS as an important factor.

I made it clear in my statement that we understood it was our choice to put DS in a different school to his elder sibling but we felt very strongly about the school.

I was amazed to hear our appeal was successful and feel very lucky. Also very aware that with a different panel on a different day, it could have gone against us.

[Sprinklestar]

That's great news, Love. Glad it all worked out for you.