Church school place fraud ?

[Whydidnoonetellme]

We applied to a church school and were rejected on distance.

Since offers day, I have been astounded by the amount of other mums who have got places despite not meeting the strict criteria (attendance twice a month at any of 3 local churches for 2 years, as signed by the vicar, or by a church outside the local area for the same time as signed by the appropriate vicar).

At least 3 of these mums have told me verbally that while they are of that particular religion, they do not go to church regularly.

It appears that in reality, all you need is a vague interest in the church and a friendly vicar to sign off your lies.

Is this worth reporting to anyone ? Would the LA take an interest? I can not imagine the school itself wants to accuse their church or others or lying? Who could hold them to account ?

The schools admissions policy says it will investigate address fraud but mentions nothing else regarding fraud.

Any ideas ?

[Zingy123]

Yes same for us for secondary. Our priest seems to have signed anyone's form who asked him to. Makes a mockery of the system. I have told the school but they say they take the ministers word as proof.

[Whydidnoonetellme]

Did you report to anyone else ? LA? In legal terms who holds the church schools to account - anyone know ?

[OsmiumPhazer]

Sorry to be so blunt but it is not your role to 'Police' the schools faith admissions, all you have is hearsay and no real evidence. Instead of expending energy on a fruitless campaign, get on the waiting list, keep checking and perhaps a place will become available come September.

[Whydidnoonetellme]

It is like a sketch from Father Ted, the parents are lying but as long as the vicar believes them then its fine. So unfair.

[Whydidnoonetellme]

It is not hearsay, I heard direct from one mum that she never goes to church. She said X religion was her faith but she could not and would not be forced to going to church every sunday as it did suit her family arrangements (think it was swimming lessons instead).

If it is defrauding other children of an education without travelling several miles away, it is in my interest. Fraud is fraud in whatever guise IMO.

[Whydidnoonetellme]

sorry, did 'not' suit her family (swimming lessons were more important)

[Minorchristmascrisis]

It's nothing new though, in my area, it's widespread practice. I do know of one church where prospective parents sign a register after mass but lots just get the priest to sign and he obliges. It's been going on for years.

[OsmiumPhazer]

Whydidnoonetellme

I can understand why your upset especially when you have played by the rules, for so long. it is a symptom of our system where the ‘sharp elbowed’ seem to get ahead by gaming the system, and I am afraid that’s has happened in this instance. I would still say that although you say it is not ‘hearsay’ it will be difficult to prove your instances of ‘faith fraud’

[Whydidnoonetellme]

Yes I imagine, they would need an accurate church record. I have no idea if this exists.

I initially discovered this as I was hearing that other mums (who I had assumed were applying on distance but lived much further away than us) had places. I thought a mistake was made on our distance, then I discover they were actually church places despite these parents saying that previously they were not. I may send in a notice to the school asking to clarify distance with these concerns. That's the least I can do.

[Zingy123]

The school in question for us is an academy. The LA just referred me back to the school.

[Whydidnoonetellme]

that's very interesting tiggy thanks for the input. I am going to mull over.

[MumTryingHerBest]

OsmiumPhazer in this instance, I'm not so sure it would be hard to prove. It would be quite easy to take a picture of the mum at the swimming lesson for three/four weeks in a row in the same month, possibly demonstrating non compliance on "attendance twice a month at any of 3 local churches for 2 years". The only caveat to that would be if the mum claimed to go to church at a different time.

As long as people just accept that this is happening, it will continue. It will take only one or two cases where people are known to be found out to make others think twice about manipulating the rules to suit their own needs.

I also agree that the OP should ensure they are on the CI for all other schools in the area.

[OsmiumPhazer]

MumTryingHerBest

It would be quite easy to take a picture of the mum at the swimming lesson for three/four weeks in a row in the same month, possibly demonstrating non compliance on "attendance twice a month at any of 3 local churches for 2 years"

Seriously?!

[WhosLookingAfterCourtney]

Wow. It's a disgrace the state schools can discriminate in this way and I'm actually glad that this school isn't using an arbitrary show your face at church yardstick to admit children.

If all they need is a vicar's signature, and they haven't forged that signature, then this isn't fraud.

[prh47bridge]

If all they need is a vicar's signature, and they haven't forged that signature, then this isn't fraud

If the vicar is signing to say the parents have attended church regularly when they haven't it is fraud. It is also unfair on those who have achieved the required attendance and end up missing out on places. Regardless of what anyone thinks of the criteria they must be administered correctly.

[MumTryingHerBest]

OsmiumPhazer are you questioning whether this is possible to do or whether it is ethical to do it?

[OsmiumPhazer]

MumTryingHerBest

I just don't think it is the sensible thing to do

[MumTryingHerBest]

OsmiumPhazer in which way would it not be sensible? Just to be clear, I'm not saying I disagree with you.

I would also say that it is not very sensible for parents to openly tell people they do not attend church and then apply for a place at a school under the criteria that requires them to do so.

[WhosLookingAfterCourtney]

prh then it's the vicar that's committed 'fraud'

Perhaps the parents didn't mention that they'd been going to church because they feel hypocritical or embarrassed about jumping through this particular hoop in order to get into this state funded school.

[nonicknameseemsavailable]

well a) she might not be being truthful in saying she hasn't been to church and b) it is perfectly possible a saturday evening service is counted not just a sunday morning one. certainly is in our church.

[rocketjam]

Our church introduced cards that the Vicar has to sign at the end of each service. It's drastic, and I really don't like it, but children of families who attend church weekly are offered a place at school, based on sibling and distance, and also first criteria of looked after children. When introduced, the 'card' caused absolute uproar. The issue is that the school is so oversubscribed that even if you go to church regularly for years, there is no guarantee that the child will get in.

And also, relying on people's honesty is out of the question. People will lie to a vicar, I see it done regularly. To their face. ie 'Little George is so ill with asthma that he rests all weekend and that's why we don't go to Church', when I know too well that little George is playing football, golf, cricket, most weekends (with my children, that's why I know).

[sunnybobs]

I don't know the exact law but I've just been on a Church education course where the Priests were telling us that actually asking for any form of church attendance record breaks a 2002 law? So while lots of church schools ask for it if anyone challenged it they wouldn't be on very stable ground. The only real thing you can ask for us baptismal certificate. Which is of course open to similar "fraud" though if we're going to support church schools funded by the state we also have to accept they should be open to anyone who wants a place.