# Talk

## Year 2 maths, normal?

(11 Posts)
muddyprints Tue 11-Feb-14 21:33:45

Dd1 is in year 2 and makes silly mistakes in maths.
50 +5 = 60. 6x4=36.
She can't tel time only hour and half hour, I've explained but she just says she doesn't get it.

She knows 2,3,5 and 10 times tables, can add subtract halve and double and work out sums from written puzzles but makes such silly mistakes.
Is this normal for year 2.

richmal Tue 11-Feb-14 22:22:38

Maths is something children learn by practising and that often involves making mistakes.

When I teach my dd maths I tend to start new subjects with an attitude of, "This is the first time we've done this. I don't expect you to understand it. I'm just telling you it's there." They are much more receptive to learning if the pressure to understand it is taken away.Then I get her to indicate with her thumb how much she has understood it.

If you leave the subject for a while the brain seems to work on it subconsciously while you do other thing. When they return to it, it will be clearer for them. By getting them to indicate their understanding again, you can help them see their progress.

Children also learn by doing, so they need plenty of examples to try, rather than just listening to explanations.

pasbeaucoupdegendarme Tue 11-Feb-14 22:28:38

I'd say that's normal for Y2. Silly mistakes are really annoying when they seem so obvious to us, but Y2 children are only just really learning to check.

By this point of the year in Y2, they are only learning to tell the time to the quarter hour, so your dd isn't far off the mark.

Knowing those tables sounds good. Does she know them out of order/within problems as well?

My son still makes some of these in Year 6. He's supposed to be doing Level 6 SATs as well. You're fine.

MissWimpyDimple Tue 11-Feb-14 22:41:15

Totally normal. Sounds much like mine, who I am assured is doing fine.

muddyprints Tue 11-Feb-14 22:47:40

No she doesn't know tables out of order, she has to count so 3x6 she goes 3 6 9 12 15 18.
Not sure what you mean by within problems?
She works well with real life situations, she likes worded questions more than just numbers,

BlueChampagne Wed 12-Feb-14 16:06:42

Sounds like DS1 who, like MissWimpyDimple I am assured is doing fine. Have been advised to encourage 'self editing' in both literacy and maths as a next step. Same with times tables, doesn't know them out of order.

There was an interesting radio 4 programme on teaching maths recently which I think is still available on iplayer.

PastSellByDate Thu 13-Feb-14 12:10:35

Hi muddy:

I think this is normal (remember they're still working this all out - and need a lot of practice/ familiarization with concepts). I also think practice will really help sort a lot of this out.

So some great free maths websites:

woodlands junior school MATHS ZONE: resources.woodlands-junior.kent.sch.uk/maths/ - just select area you want to work on and there are fantastic links to resources/ games.

Cool maths for kids: www.coolmath4kids.com/ - my girls primarily play games - but there are some lessons there as well - which may help when you're stuck on ideas of explaining how to do something.

Maths Champs: www.mathschamps.co.uk/

As your DD is Y2 - BBC KS1 Bitesize (which prepares students for KS1 SATs) has a maths section with good practice there: www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/ks1/

If your school uses education city or My Maths: there are free games on this as well which provide good practice.

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Strictly speaking for KS1 (end Y2) notionally the benchmark is x2, x5 and x10 tables. From Year 3 the remainder of the times tables will be tackled and Gove is pushing for all times tables to x12 to be known by time child turns age 9 (sometime in Y4).

So - as your questions somewhat relate to x5 and x4 tables my longwinded answer below relates to how to teach times tables in general:

50 + 5 = 60 - is slightly worrying and does sound like they don't quite know their 5s solidly. It's both counting by intervals - 5 - 10 - 15 - 20 - but it's also knowing that multiple additions is the same thing as multiplication.

Sometimes songs help.

If your DD enjoys & gets halving/ doubling - then you're really well on your way to learning all the times tables.

So with 5x table - the trick can be to know what it is x10

i.e. 8 x 10 = 80 and then halve it - 1/2 of 80 = 40 - so 8 x 5 = 40.

------

doubling comes in handy for 4x table (so referring to 6 x 4 = 36 mistake)

if your DD knows 2 x 6 = 12 and can double - than 4 x 6 is the same thing as 2 x 6 = 12 and then double that answer (2 x 12) = 24!

EASY when you know how.

Doubling works for x8 (same family 2/4/8):

if you know 2s - then it's the answer for the 2s times table and then double and double again

so if you DD doesn't like the look of 4 x 8 - try 4 x 2 = 8, double again = 16 and double again = 32 which is 4 x 8.

so that's 2/4/8 and 5/10 down.
-------------------

if you haven't or the school hasn't - do take time now to explain magic of x0 (anything x 0 = 0 or 1,999,999 x 0 = 0) and 1 is like a mirror - anything x 1 is itself - 999 x 1 = 999.

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now if your DD knows 3s (great song again from school house rock to help here: www.youtube.com/watch?v=aU4pyiB-kq0)

doubling helps with both x6 and x12 tables:

so for x6 table just double answer from x3 table- so 3 x 6 is the same thing as 3 x 3 = 9 and double that answer (9) - to give you 18 - 3 x 16 = 18.

for x12 table - you can double x3 table answer and double again (same method as for x8 table with x2 table).

so 3 x 12 is the same thing as 3 x 3 = 9, double that = 18, double that = 36 - so 3 x 12 = 36.

Another way of thinking of the x12 table is to add facts for x10 table and x2 table. so 3 x 12 = (3x10) + (3 x 2) = 30 + 6 = 36.

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so that's your x0, x1, x2, x3, x4, x5, x6, x8, x10, x12 tables down

that leaves x7, x9 and x11

let's ignore 7 (it's a swine) and look at x9 and x11.

x9 is lovely for patterns

1 x 9 = 09
2 x 9 = 18
3 x 9 = 27
4 x 9 = 36
5 x 9 = 45
6 x 9 = 54
7 x 9 = 63
8 x 9 = 72
9 x 9 = 81
10 x 9 = 90

pattern doesn't work beyond this but not to worry

So looking at this pattern you note two things:

The number in the tens column is always one less than what you're multiplying 9 by. So in 5 x 9 - the answer starts 4-. Then the second pattern gives you the remainder of the answer - the digits in the 9s times table (whatever you multiply 9 by - even 1,999,999) always add up to 9.

so back to 5 x 9 - we know the tens digit is 4 - so what + 4 = 9 - why that's 5 - so the answer is 45 - 5 x 9 = 45.

up to 10 x 9 - there is one more trick. Turn your hands so that both palms are upwards and the thumbs are on the outside. Start with left hand and number each thumb/ finger starting with left thumb = 1, to left pinky = 5 to right pinky = 6 and right thumb = 10. Now use your hands as a x9 calculator. Let's try 4 x 9. Fold over your 4th finger - that's your left ring finger. you'll see that you have 3 fingers up to the left of the finger (that's your tens digit) and six fingers up to the right of your ring finger (that's your units digit) - so that makes 36. 4 x 9 = 36.

now moving on

11 x 9 = 99 (either using 11s tricks - which I'll explain below) - or knowing 10 x 9 = 90 and 9 x 1 = 9 so 90 + 9 = 99

12 x 9 (you can either do the double and double again trick for 3 times table - 3 x 9 = 27; double that = 54 and double that = 108) or you can add 10x table and 2 x table facts together: so 12 x 9 = (10 x 9) + (2 x 9) = 90 + 18 = 90 + 10 + 8 = 100 + 8 = 108

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11s are fun

first off same thing as 1x table - anything x1 is itself - so up to 11 x 9 you just write the digit you're multiplying 9 by down 2 times.

1 x 11 = 11
2 x 11 = 22
3 x 11 = 33
...
9 x 11 = 99

then there's a trick - for two digit numbers x 11 separate the first and second digit and then put their sum in the middle.

so for 10 x 11 - separate 1 and 0 and put sum in middle: 1 - (1 + 0) - 0 = 110

and it works regardless of two digit number:

23 x 11 = 2 - (2 + 3) - 3 = 253

you will have to do some carrying over if the number in the middle >9

so for example;

29 x 11 = 2 - (2 + 9) - 9 = 2 - (11) - 9 = (2+1) - 1 - 9 = 319

gosh that means we know all times tables to x12 but 7.

In fact thinking about it we know the 7x table - because we've done it with x0 - x6 and with x8 - x12 - we just need 7 x 7.

I'm afraid there is no trick - you just have to learn 7 x 7 = 49 - however I find it helps to remember that 7 x 7 is a swine - which of course rhymes with 49.

Why is learning this important. Well I think that has been summed up best by this blog: www.greatmathsteachingideas.com/2014/01/05/youve-never-seen-the-gcse-maths-curriculum-like-this-before/ - the second image shows that the entire GCSE maths curriculum is largely underpinned by sound knowledge of multiplication/ division of whole numbers.

maths is full of patterns/ tricks - so learning them/ recognising them helps a lot. But it also is ideally suited to video games - so practice can take the form of playing. My DDs will happily play maths games whilst I'm cooking dinner and don't even realising they're learning/ practicing.

HTH

muddyprints Fri 14-Feb-14 16:14:17

Thank you psbd, all makes sense, will be playing maths games this half term!

PastSellByDate Sat 15-Feb-14 07:56:06

Hi Muddy

Some easy games to play to review x2, x5 & x10 (+ any other x tables your DC knows):

Play snakes & ladders with 1 or 2 dice (depending on how high you want to go 1 x 5 - 6 x 5 = 1 die and 1 x 5 - 12 x 5 = 2 dice)

Let's say you want to practice x5.

roll the dice - say it's 4 - then ask what is 4 x 5 - answer is 20 (may need to count out 5 - 10 - 15 - 20 (use knuckles or fingers to keep track of multiple) - then move piece accordingly. With these bigger numbers you may need to play the board more than once. We tend to play forward & backwards.

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MULTIPLICATION SNAP:

Use a normal deck of cards. Ace = 1, 2 - 9 cards as marked, Jack = 10, Queen = 11 and King = 12.

Write down the multiplication table you want to practice on a piece of paper or a post-it. So let's say it's x5 again.

Shuffle cards and put them in a pile by paper/ post-it note.

Flip first card. Let's say it's a 9. What's 9 x 5 - Answer 45.

First to get the answer correct keeps the card.

Be kind at first and let your DC win a bit - but as they get more confident - go for it.

This can get really rowdy once your DC(s) are good at this -but it's great practice for speed of recall.

HTH

PastSellByDate Sat 15-Feb-14 08:01:21

Sorry, DH has just pointed out I should add Black Jack or '21'

This is brilliant for working those number bonds.

Standard rules of black jack - the object is to get as close to 21 as possible without going over.

Use standard deck of 52 cards. Ace = 1, 2-9 cards as numbered and all face cards (Jack/ Queen/ King) are = 10.

Deal each player 2 cards. At first this may be easier to play open handed so your DC can see the adding up for all players.

So say you deal yourself a king & a 4 - your total is 14. You dealt your DC a 9 and a Jack - their total is 19.

The question is do you stay put or do you ask for another card.

Let's say you ask for another card. It's a 5. Your total is now 19.

You then have to decide do you stay or hold. You decide to hold.

Your DC can hold or ask for another card ('hit') - they get a 3 - oh no - 19 + 3 = 22 - BUST....

Great for practice of simple addition to 21 & a bit beyond.

Again, start slow (as I suggest all cards face up) and really talk through the adding & working out whether it's worth the risk to take another card.

Lots of good addition skills there.

-------------------------

DH also reminded me to say that you can play snakes & ladders backwards for subtraction practice.

Hopefully that's a few games to play if this rain continues. Have a lovely half-term.

HTH

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