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Scotland - primary 1 class size>25 what are the school's obligations?

(22 Posts)
feelthis Wed 08-May-13 21:40:16

Does anyone know what the legal obligations (if any) a school has to meet if it has a class size of more than 25 in primary 1?

So say, if they choose to have 2 classes of 30, do they have to have an additional teacher and if so does this have to be dedicated to the classes and full time.

I've been doing lots of googling and cannot find out any fact about what schools have to do if they breach the 25 limit.

MrsPresley Wed 08-May-13 21:56:36

class sizes

Is this any help?

MrsPresley Wed 08-May-13 21:58:38

Sorry meant to say, it says there that the maximum is 30 for P1.

At my DDs school there is 3 P1 classes but I have no idea how many is in each class, but I do know there is only 1 teacher for each class (DD is P7)

feelthis Wed 08-May-13 22:00:41

I am pretty sure that as of Nov 2011 class sizes in P1 have been set at statutory maximum of 25.

feelthis Wed 08-May-13 22:03:14

Sorry the regulation to reduce P1 to 25 came into force in August, not November 2011. I just can't find what, if anything the school has to do if it doesn't comply with the regulations.

MrsPresley Wed 08-May-13 22:05:31

Sorry didnt realise that was from 2006 blush

Just phoned eldest DD, my granddaughter is in P1, she says the 3 classes have 20 each but next year it will be 2 classes of 30 (for what will then be P2)

trixymalixy Wed 08-May-13 22:05:46

At the school we were looking at for DS (placing request) they had a class of 32 with two teachers and a class of 25.

MrsPresley Wed 08-May-13 22:06:44

Will the council not have the information you need?

Although they are not always helpful!

feelthis Wed 08-May-13 22:09:17

Does the 2nd teacher have to be dedicated 100% though or can they do other duties? I think I might have to phone the council as I want to see something written down as to what they have to provide for 2 classes of 30.

feelthis Wed 08-May-13 22:10:33

Yes, the council probably can help - in their own time! Was hoping someone with an insider knowledge might be able to circumnavigate the request!

golfyc Wed 08-May-13 22:20:21

Hi
check out
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/Education/Schools/Teaching/classes
Also your council should have priorities somewhere on their website that will something to do with ' a good start in life for our children' so you could always push the authority with that.
The maximum is only for p1 so they can do a composite p1 / p2 class which sort of gets them out of the obligation as at p2 they can have 30, however its a general push to lower all class sizes so really shouldn't happen

AgentProvocateur Wed 08-May-13 22:23:24

I think that they only get an extra teacher if it goes over 30. That's what the rule was before the max class sizes of 25.

feelthis Wed 08-May-13 22:34:38

Thanks - what can the school do though if they have the best part of 60 kids all within catchment and only 2 classrooms available?

All the rhetoric about average class size being 20 and capped at 25 means nothing if you have too many kids and space for only 2 classes!

Not ideal and I want the facts as to how they can bypass all these requirements.

redlac Wed 08-May-13 22:39:12

last year when DD was in P1 there was the small class of 25 with 1 teacher and the big class with 33 which has 2 teachers (although there was actually 3 as one post was job share) so yes over 25 they will have 2 teachers.

The class room was a bit of a squeeze for the big class but the other areas of the school were utilised well.

Now she is in P2 they have evened the classes out and they have 1 teacher each as the limit of 25 is only for Primary 1

golfyc Wed 08-May-13 22:39:25

They can't bypass if you have 60 kids in catchment they either have to put on 3 classes or two P1 class with a P1/P2 composite
Were we are there was actually 60+ kids in catchment and it looked like that was what we would have but many chose to go to other schools and we ended up with two p1s - one with 25 and one with 24

mrsyattering Wed 08-May-13 22:40:53

My dd is in p1, i think there are 2 p1 classes at my dds school with 25/30 children and one composite class which is only allowed a max of 25. 1 teacher per class and one teaching assistant beteween the 3 classes

AgentProvocateur Wed 08-May-13 22:41:09

They can, and often do, use temporary classrooms - portacabin, or a library room. They may also do a 1/2 composite.

feelthis Wed 08-May-13 22:46:52

I am pretty sure based on the status quo they will be planning 2 classes of 30 with 3 teachers in total but the 3rd may be doing other admin duties.

feelthis Wed 08-May-13 22:49:38

Frustrating as well as nearly hitting the 60 mark with catchment kids (some of whom granted may go private before August), some placement requests have been granted too - that is another story though hits head against brick wall

Groovee Thu 09-May-13 07:34:47

Most schools who choose to go over the 25 limit because they have to take in their catchment children, usually then use "team teaching" I've seen classes be 1 of 25 and one of 35 with 2 teachers.

dmac4 Wed 15-May-13 13:46:44

My understanding was that the limit of 25 only applies to composite classes and a max of 35 in a class for the same year group. The Scottish Parent Council Association (head office) are really good at giving impartial advice and best contacts in the council Certainly in my experience there has only been 1 teacher to a large class.

bettycoast Wed 15-May-13 13:51:18

At DDs school - where they had room to do it, they ended up with 2 P1 classes, and a composite P1/P2.

At the next nearest school, they were one form entry, and had no room, so they had two teachers in the class (of 34 ifrc) and an almost constant stream of groups doing small group work round the school in spare spaces.

How much space do they have?

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