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my child reads and write at top level, but her Phonics group is not!!!

(349 Posts)
B4r4joon Mon 10-Dec-12 15:12:22

My daughter is a very bright child at Y1...she is reading and writing very well...however when it came to grouping them, she is not been located in the top group in Phonics, although she reads the same level and writes the same as those children on the top group. This is very confusing for her amd me, as I dont understand on what basis this happened. She can be at times shy and she observes her peers very well and learn from them as she is bi-lingual. In the gropu she is in now, the difference between the level she reads and the level of some other children is huge...perhaps 7 colour reading band!!!

This has affecte dmy childs confidence as she thinks she hasnt been good enough, or why she is reading the same book as her reading partner, and he/she is in another group. ALl confusing for me, I am gonna talk to the teacher tomorrow, and I dont know how to say it. i dont want to convey that I dont trust their judgment, but this is gonna hold my child back and crashes her confidence, as the groups are gonna stay the same until the end of teh year! Can I ask the teacher to move my child to the other group? Is Phonics the knowledge that they learn to apply to their writing and reading, so how can she read and write higher than her phonics knowledge? She is already reading sounds that she has not been officially taught, by working it out on herself....

yellowsubmarine53 Mon 17-Dec-12 20:35:59

I await with interest....

learnandsay Mon 17-Dec-12 19:03:50

yellow, I'll join you in another thread for that topic if you like.

yellowsubmarine53 Mon 17-Dec-12 17:55:25

So a child who throws scissors should be removed from the school lands?

For how long do you propose?

And what should be done for the rest of their school life, do you think?

Just intrigued as to where you're going with this one....

B4r, there's a general truism with praise that says that you praise the effort rather than the outcome. The effort is the part that the child can affect by their own behaviour, whilst the outcome is sort of less in their control. It's more than 'it doesn't matter how you do as long as you do your best' and more like 'I can see that you've worked really hard at making sure that all your sentences start with capitals. That writing looks really grown up' etc.


betterwhenthesunshines Mon 17-Dec-12 17:27:39

B4r4 I find it's often helpful to be really specific with praise - they seem to take it in more eg "That's really brilliant" can easily be an off the cuff remark, but if you say "Wow, that looks like you've worked hard" - and then add a particular comment eg "you've made the story very funny," OR "it 'exploded' (or other example from their story) - what a good way of describing it, that sounds very exciting!"

If they are feeling sensitive, then don't go too over the top with praise as they won't believe you if they feel as though they are struggling. Just find one thing that seems great to you and focus on that. Hope she's feeling more confident soon.

B4r4joon Mon 17-Dec-12 13:06:26

Will, do for sure, but what makes me connect the whole thing, is that she was not like this is only recently, that she feels like that. I hope it is just a phase...

learnandsay Mon 17-Dec-12 12:43:08

b4r4, can your daughter tell you why she thinks something is not good? Can she show you something that she thinks is good, and can she tell you why she thinks one is good and the other is not? (That's pretty advanced stuff. Lots of adults struggle with explaining subjective judgements, and with good reason.) But, if she doesn't (or doesn't seem to have) any real views on what is good and what isn't and why, it's possible that she's using

wow, that's brilliant!
No it isn't.
Yes it is.
No it isn't.

as an automatic dialogue, rather than genuinely feeling that her work isn't any good. That may not say much about the work but more about how she's feeling in general. If I suspected that about my daughter then I'd do activities with her which had nothing to do with school work. I'd do things which she took natural delight in.

B4r4joon Mon 17-Dec-12 12:06:43

The teacher came back after been sick since our meeting last Tuesday!!! Smiled at me, I did too at the morning dispatch today, and asked her if she is better now.... with all the discussions going on here, it feels very awkard seeing her...It feels a broken relationship/partnership...!!! My daughter was happy to see her, and had already made a Get Well Soon Card for her...I have to work on her shattered self-steem, alongside Phonics Phases. She keeps telling me NO, IT IS NOT, whenevr I tell her wow, this is brilliant work, or you are doing very well!!!!...

learnandsay Mon 17-Dec-12 10:29:37

My daughter has children's scissors and she brings them to her parents to be put up high or put on the dining table when her one year old sister is around the house because she knows that her sister could have an accident with them. So if she was throwing scissors across a classroom not only would she know that that was wrong but she would also know why it was wrong. If she knowingly did something that bad then school is the wrong place for her.

learnandsay Mon 17-Dec-12 10:24:36

Remove her from the school. A child who throws scissors has no business being there.

yellowsubmarine53 Mon 17-Dec-12 10:05:11

What if your dd was the one who threw the scissors, lands?

What action would you expect the school to take then?

mrz Sun 16-Dec-12 08:57:35

as for throwing scissors and giving children plimsolls to throw those are extremes not everyday occurrences but obviously the ones that make headlines

mrz Sun 16-Dec-12 08:55:30

learnandsay it isn't easy to remove a child from school (unless you work in Jabed's school on the Education forum)

learnandsay Sun 16-Dec-12 08:47:29

I'm not saying Jonnys Foster & Thwacker don't need school desperately. But what I am saying is (a) do they know that? (b) Somebody posted about a child throwing scissors across the classroom. If my daughter had her eye put out because somebody didn't remove Little Jonny Thwacker from the school at the point that they should have done....


mrz Sun 16-Dec-12 07:55:20

We don't remove children from class but keeping a child near to me or at a table at the side of the class would prevent them injuring other children in your scenario.

simpson Sun 16-Dec-12 00:26:09

Sorry for lack of spaces, iPad not happy hmm

simpson Sun 16-Dec-12 00:25:42

You would want young kids (age 6 or so removed from a school??) shock

These kids for whatever reason need the school possibly more than most kids as they may have troubled home lives or whatever and they need school.

Trust me,one of the kids I mentioned earlier was beating my child on a daily basis for 6 weeks (lesson to him to tell me/ teacher,lesson to teacher - notice when my DC behaviour suddenly got worse,lesson to me to pay more attention sad). But once we (the school and me) had got to the bottom of it, they sorted it quickly...I would never ask for the bully child to be removed(just the school to deal with the situation - which they did).

This was all at the beginning of yr2 and we have never had another problem and he is currently in yr3.

learnandsay Sun 16-Dec-12 00:08:30

Ok. If the lessons are so exciting that Jonny Thwacker and Jonny Foster can be engaged and involved without including nonsense about moshi monsters (and not so nonsensical info about soldiers,) then that's all to the good. I can't help thinking that there are some pupils that are unengageable regardless of the tactics used. If I was the head I would set about not only having them removed

simpson Sat 15-Dec-12 23:59:15

But tbh the teacher should not be bringing in stuff that didn't happen (I know you are just giving an example) but it is the teachers job to make the lesson exciting.

DS's class has some challenging kids (one of whom takes himself off to a corner to poo in his pants, another who plots how he can escape from the school on a daily basis) but they all loved their history lessons because it was made exciting for them (talking about when DS was in yr2 last year)...

learnandsay Sat 15-Dec-12 23:32:22

I don't know. Presumably the children are familiar with one another and they know by now that Jonny Foster (who has communication difficulties) only talks about moshi monsters and power rangers. (These children have been together for anything up to three years by now.) So, to them, the teacher explaining how the Duke of York (or said power ranger) stepped in and managed the fire would have become a normal aspect of the teacher's communication with Jonny Foster. The other children know perfectly well that the power rangers didn't help to manage the fire. They're also happy studying the topic properly. But Jonny Foster isn't. That's the point.

Haberdashery Sat 15-Dec-12 23:23:23

Of. Bloody phone.

Haberdashery Sat 15-Dec-12 23:22:36

There are 29 other children in the class, 27 of whom are at least tolerating the great fire without power rangers and 10 of whom would positively resent the introduction if power rangers.

learnandsay Sat 15-Dec-12 23:07:39

Haberd, you're probably right. But let's just say for a hypothetical moment that we've got children who have trouble communicating and have very few interests. (That's not unreasonable. They do exist.) And let's just say that I'm having a deal of difficulty getting one child to study the Great Fire because he says that he couldn't give a monkeys about the ffin fire. Ultimately I agree with him, actually. It happened a long time ago and won't affect his life in any way. I can't see how I would persuade him that he should care about it. But what if studying it was fun for him? (Given that his communication skills are pretty limited.) What if he could see, from his knowledge of the heroics of the power rangers and the equal heroics of the Duke of York, that the things that he admired in his plastic toys were also qualities in real people. (Which is one of the goals of teaching history.)

mrz, no. I haven't been in all that many schools. But I do know that heads want to expel more pupils than the law allows and I also believe (if one can believe what one reads on mumsnet) that one headmistress supplies shoes to throw at staff. So, at some point, the violent unresponsive pupil has to be faced. And ultimately how that encounter goes will be determined by the policy of the head.

mrz Sat 15-Dec-12 22:57:25

The best way to win them over is to make it so good they think they are missing out ...

Haberdashery Sat 15-Dec-12 22:55:16

Sorry - that should say UNengaging.

mrz Sat 15-Dec-12 22:54:25

You've not been in many primary schools have you learnandsay

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