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Is Phase 5 phonics normal for a Y4 child(we're being told it is)?

(25 Posts)
Kansasgirl Wed 26-Sep-12 09:28:48

Still hasn't covered Phase 6 or the Y3 curriculum.Have been told Phase 5 is very hard and most schools have the maj on this level at this age.

sazale Wed 26-Sep-12 10:08:50

This explains the letters and sounds phases chuck
www.letters-and-sounds.com/what-is-letters-and-sounds.html
It says phase 5 is year 1.

simpson Wed 26-Sep-12 10:11:31

Phase 6 is covered in yr2...

Kansasgirl Wed 26-Sep-12 10:28:23

That's what I said but they said it was too hard for Y1,shouldn't have year group labels,he's not behind and I shouldn't worry-I am though!

Oh and confused!

Iamnotminterested Wed 26-Sep-12 10:38:35

DD covered it in year 1.

Sounds like they are bullshitting you, OP

Haberdashery Wed 26-Sep-12 10:55:53

DD is in year 1 and they are covering Phase 5 (they actually began some of this work in Reception). I would be a bit concerned if they were still doing it in Year 4.

iseenodust Wed 26-Sep-12 10:56:27

Not a teacher. Having looked at saz link, DS's yr4 homework this weekend was phase 6(?) suffixes eg turn silly into silliness, sad into sadness.

simpson Wed 26-Sep-12 10:58:24

Is this for all the children in the year group OP or just yours??

I would be concerned if phase 6 had not been covered yet in yr4.

Mashabell Wed 26-Sep-12 11:02:34

Some people now use the term 'phonics' for all teaching of reading and writing.

Phase 5 is about learning alternative pronunciations for graphemes and building up word-specific knowledge of spellings. And although this begins in Yr1 or even in reception, we have to keep learning how to pronounce some words, even as adults, as I had to with 'ichoate' not long ago (aged 67). Schoolchildren certainly have to for many years: epitome, antipodes...

For spelling, they merely scratch the surface. The learning of exceptions goes on right up to university and continues to trip up even students at Oxford.

So it all depends on the use of the word phonics.

Mashabell Wed 26-Sep-12 11:04:09

The word which stumped me was 'inchoate' not 'ichoate'.

Kansasgirl Wed 26-Sep-12 11:18:37

Sorry should have said I think it's for spelling.

crazygracieuk Wed 26-Sep-12 11:30:35

No.
My son is average ability y2 and learning phase 6. He reads orange book band which says phase 5 on the back.

crazygracieuk Wed 26-Sep-12 11:35:14

Too hard for y1 is bull. My average ability y2 son isn't an expert but phase 5 has improved his spelling. For example he would have spelt fur "fr" in Reception but last night he asked whether it was spelt "fur" "fer" or "fir" which shows what he learned in phonics last year.

Mashabell Wed 26-Sep-12 11:44:22

Kansasgirl
As I said, learning to spell even just the 7,000 most used words takes many years, because at least 3,695 of them contain one or more irregular letters (send - friend; boffin - imagine; canteen - sardine ... on and on and on).

The irregular spellings undermine children's confidence in the regular patterns. They cope fine with 'kept, slept, wept' - until they meet 'leapt'. Then some start to write 'creapt' and 'weapt' too.

That's why learning to spell English is such a long slog, unless u happent to have an excellent visual memory, which only about 1 in 4 people do.

Kansasgirl Wed 26-Sep-12 11:53:19

So should I be worried and should he be getting extra work?

3duracellbunnies Wed 26-Sep-12 13:16:48

Are you sure that he is on letters and sounds though? Mine are on Read Write inc and in there school there only seem to be 5 phases (based on my dd's self report). Dd1 is on phase 5, it is the top phase in their school, she is in yr 3, she is reading Roald Dahl, David Walliams etc. Her work just seems to revolve around spelling etc. Many of them finish phase 5 during yr3. The school is fairly M/C boden territory, would be surprised if they were all massively behind the rest of the mumsnet population.

Dd2 is on phase 3 she is just going into yr1 and is doing well for her class. She covers sounds like 'igh' 'ear' 'eer' etc. I don't know how the phases from different schemes compare, but worth checking first.

3duracellbunnies Wed 26-Sep-12 13:17:58

Sorry their school, maybe I should go and sit in on dd's class too!

Kansasgirl Wed 26-Sep-12 13:25:29

Pretty sure it's L&S-they made a big thing of it when they started doing it but you never know.smile

Ds v good reader(free in Y1) but I understand reading is entirely separate so not expecting him to be off scheme for spelling by any means-just not still doing a level designed for year 1.hmm

3duracellbunnies Wed 26-Sep-12 13:36:07

Ours changed to RWI last sept, and they definitely made more of a deal of it for dd2 who was then in reception than they did for dd1 in yr2. Do you think his spelling is poor for his age?

Kansasgirl Wed 26-Sep-12 13:40:49

I don't know,we get zero info.His ability isn't iykwim.He found the odd bit of homework they had last year v easy.I think it's a lack of exposure thing which I'd like to see rectified.If it isn't I'd like to see intervention,extra help and work but because so many are like him apparently(and there are I guess those worse)there is nothing planned.

Will have to go back to the head I guess<weary>(and fed up).

iseenodust Wed 26-Sep-12 13:59:04

Did your DS get reasonable KS1 results at end of year2? Did you get teacher assessment of NC levels at end of year3 that are on track? If so this could just be a confusion of 'jargon' not ability and expectation? What makes you say specifically they haven't covered the Yr3 curriculum?

sparklekitty Wed 26-Sep-12 22:09:31

Phase 5 is normally taught in Y1, possibly running into Y2. However, good practice says that phonics should be differentiated and letters and sounds should be fully completed rather than being a 'KS1' thing. If your Y4 son is learning phase 5 it could be that the school are introducing/teaching phonics as a whole school thing (which is good) but 'majority of schools' do not have lots of children on P5 at that age. It might be worth asking about the schools reading policy, it maybe changing and phonics in higher age groups is something thats being introduced. (I'm a Y2 teacher btw)

BrigitBigKnickers Thu 27-Sep-12 10:04:24

We recently had to go back to phase 5/6 with loads of our junior age children (up to year 6) as their spelling and writing was appalling and the skills were not securely at all taught in the infants school.

They spent all their time in year 2 doing this daft Pie Corbett Talk for writing rubbish so they could redraft and redraft and then rewrite a story with loads of interesting words but not write anything independently.

Many of them came up on a level 2a and they can barely write a sentence unaided. -angry

If the skills are not embedded then they need to go back. If your DC is very secure in reading and writing with all the phase 5 and 6 stuff then you have a gripe- if he is not then surely it's better for him to firm up on these skills?

Mashabell Thu 27-Sep-12 10:23:07

their spelling and writing was appalling and the skills were not securely at all taught in the infants school.

Children forget the irregular spellings, even when well taught, because there are so many (close to 4,000 by end of secondary). Many children forget the ones they learned early as they learn more and more new ones.

If u must blame someone, blame the English spelling system, or rather the prats who enshrined them in dictionaries without giving a thought to how children would cope with them.

Masha Bell

coldcupoftea Thu 27-Sep-12 18:49:40

I am a Y3 TA- our phonics groups are made up of Y3 and Y4 and are split into phase 3, phase 5, phase 6, and those who have finished all the phases ( who do other work during phonics).

Some of the children are repeating the phase they did in Y2, because they are not yet secure in that phase.

I wouldn't worry too much about the levels, as long as the work is appropriate for your DS. The phonics groups are different to the literacy groups, so a Y4 child might be on phase 5 phonics but still in the top literacy group, for example.

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