Some advice from KS1 teachers/parents please

[Justnormal]

Apologies for repetition. I posted this by mistake on the education forum (still finding my way around MN!) and would like some more advice as I'm struggling to find logic. DC is in year one and just turned 6, reading age of 7.3 and normal ability.

Main issues

Spelling lists which follow RWI and are driving me insane as so hard to learn. eg this week we had the "oy & oi" sounds

Sounds oi & oy

Disappointed
annoying
would
voice
checkpoints
choices
joyfullness
avoiding
marmalade

I feel my child is struggling with very basic spelling of words when writing (these have never been covered in school as RWI level determined by reading age test) and that the words given weekly are of very little benefit. School response is they know best and the weekly spellings are specific to RWI.

Any advice please, TIA

[Justnormal]

Oh how do I edit please?

[SunflowersSmile]

That is hard for year 1.

[crazygracieuk]

Is he in an academic private school? Those are really hard.

My son is Y1 (average reading ability)and his spellings for the oi/oy week are more like point,voice,annoy,joy,avoid... so half the length that your son has to learn.

[crazygracieuk]

Lots of studies prove that spelling tests for children don't improve spelling ability but schools seem to persist with them due to parental pressure. [sigh] Personally the only positive of spelling test practice has been the improvement in ds' handwriting. He started Y1 unable to form most letters correctly but now forms them all correctly and has pretty neat handwriting.

[mumnosbest]

I teach oi in F2 (year below), oy is introduced as an alternative in Y1. Although these words look much harder, the sounds are all ones he knows. Looks like they're just encouraging 2 and 3 syllable words. I'm sure if you help him break the words down into syllables, he'll be able to spell both parts. That's what he needs to practice.
I agree that spelling homework doesn't improve spelling greatly but it does keep you in the loop of what they are learning. I wouldn't just learn these words but focus on the sounds. That way he'll automatically be able to spell those on his list. Also at this age I wouldn't worry which oi/oy he was using so long as he knows both (coin/coyn). I'd be saying 'yes that sounds right but we actually spell it with oi not oy'.

[hockeylegs]

They do look hard for yr1. Any teachers have a view on what age would these sorts of words normally be for?

[Justnormal]

Thanks for the feedback, I'm quite frustrated as the spellings seem to be one day, comprehension (RWI Blue) another day and nothing seems to make much sense. Although DC tends to get the spellings correct most weeks or near on i have been told that DC's spelling in the comprehension (they have to write 2 x20 mins a week) is weak!! Arh! Iv'e googled lots of spelling lists from schools (both state & private) for this age range and can not find anything like the above, all of theirs make sense and follow patterns. How can i bring this up with the school, what can i say? TIA

[mumnosbest]

All the words are oy/oi, except would which is a 'tricky word' (DfES Letters & Sounds phase 4 I think). Not sure where marmalade comes from. If you google Letters and Sounds and download it, it will help you see where the word order comes from. Look at phase 4 ish I think.

[IndigoBell]

But I don't understand your problem.

Your child is reading and spelling well. What are you unhappy with?

Why does it matter if his spelling words are hard? Either he'll learn them or he won't. No big deal either way.

[Justnormal]

IndigoBell

The problem is to learn these spellings is painful, takes at least 4 days of continually trying to find ways to learn them. I'm also told that DC has a problem with spelling when writing! Well then why don't they make them more realistic and basic to help with that issue. I can't see the point of battling to learn a group of spellings that will be held in memory for a test. I feel the child is getting confused and being put off writing by such an overload.

[Justnormal]

Sorry forgot to add that I wanted to know if these were normal spellings for RWI? Also what is the general feeling towards RWI?

[IndigoBell]

RWI is excellent in the Infants.

I have never seen those spellings in RWI.

If your DD doesn't get 10/10 in her spelling test it doesn't matter.

[Hulababy]

I work in Y1 and we give NO spellings out to learn at all, infact no homework other than encouraged to read often.

Spelling tests have very little academic value. They, on the whole, do not teach children to spell when it comes to their independent work, just to learn words for a spelling test and then promptly forget.

[booboobeedoo]

These do seem very hard, a bit random and slightly pointless at this age? Maybe check how long the teacher expects the children to spend on spellings, do that and then leave it, whether he gets them right or wrong. I am not sure how many adults could spell disappointed or joyfulness (how many ls?!) As a comparison, DD is y2 in a private preprep, very academic, these spellings are much harder than her current list (e.g this week for the ea sound read, spread, bread lead etc).

[mrz]

I agree spelling tests are pretty pointless

If I were teaching these in school I would probably teach - point - voice - choice and void one day and then annoy and joy. After that we would use point to write disappoint(ed) pointless checkpoint appointment etc joy- joyful joyous enjoy etc but I would teach and apply in school not send lists home to learn (where does marmalade fit?)

[mrz]

As a teacher I don't think the spellings are difficult if the child is following a structured phonics program

[40notTrendy]

I understand your concerns. My ds gets 6 spellings to learn a week. We do our best but it's a fine line between encouraging him to do well and not being too concerned if he gets them wrong. He also has has oi and oy words to learn, but from memory it was join, coin, enjoy, boy etc.
I've shared my feelings about spelling tests in yr 1 with his teacher and the head. Which made me feel better but nothing else. Just don't see the point. Especially as if I ask him to spell share from last week's list, he won't remember!

[booboobeedoo]

In structured phonics, how would the child know which has pp and which has just p?

[mrz]

because they are taught

[booboobeedoo]

Ok - Word by word? Or is there a pattern I meant to ask (genuine interest!) they seem tricky if you have to learn them one by one.

[mrz]

No not word by word but words that contain the same pattern

[mumblesmum]

In RWI, the spellings are taught daily, and spellings are only sent home to appease parents.
It is an interactive phonics scheme - children mark their own spellings and the sound and spelling pattern are practised daily. Don't stress about it. A spelling list shouldn't be sent home, because the idea is that children are continuously reinforcing alternative spellings of sounds, so that they can generalise use in other words.

[Justnormal]

Thank you all for the feedback, just to clarify the spellings are never covered in school or looked at bar spelling day. If the spellings are not learnt the red pen with statements like "try harder next time" are written over spelling book with sad face stickers. RWI is 3 x 20 mins per week, this is one spelling test and 2 bits of comprehension. I'm am informed with a degree of aggression that these are normal and quite correct for RWI year 1's and my DC should have no problem with them!

I can not see in that time how a structured phonics program is being implemented, is it possible?

[PastSellByDate]

Hi Justnormal:

We had a very similar problem with DD1 in year 1 and our solution was to make up two separate sentences. One sentence with 'oi' words and another with 'oy' words.

So with your list:

Disappointed
annoying
voice
checkpoints
choices
joyfullness
avoiding

marmalade - not sure why this is with 'oi' words - so probably would just learn this separately.

would - also not an 'oi'/ 'oy' word - so again would learn this separately.

So first off you and your DC should select out all 'oi' words.

Disappointed
voice
checkpoints
choices
avoiding

Avoiding using your voice at checkpoints when making choices can leave the officer disappointed.

It's a nonsense - but if they learn the sentence can learn the 'oi' words. Now in our case we have 5 'oi' words and 5 'oy' words so 2 sentences made more sense.

In fact you only have 2 oy words: annoying and joyfullness.

Tom's sister's joyfullness at seeing Tom fall over was really annoying.

So in fact if your DS makes up a similar style of sentence with the 2 'oy' words - he basically knows all the other words are 'oi'. If there not in the 'oy' sentence they're 'oi'. Then learn the two words without oi/oy sounds: would and marmalade and your home free.

It's learning to the test - but we try to focus on the meaning (so we read through the list and make sure that we understand all the meanings - especially if a word has more than one meaning - I haven't gone overboard on noun/ verb/ adjective/ etc... - but I am starting to sneak it in with DD1 who's in Y4). We also work on imagination/ functional grammar (practice making up the sentences and insisting they make some sort of logical sense) and writing (practice writing these sentences). By putting structure into a list we've found our DDs can then sort out words into groups - can learn these groups - and then can do well on the test.

At first, DD1 (now Y4) seemed to just learn these for the test and then instantly forget them, but 2 years on we're actually starting to see accurate spellings and a good sense of vocabulary. So spending this time does incrementally seem to have benefits.

HTH

[Justnormal]

Pastsell by date, thankyou very much this seems a brilliant idea and makes so much sense (Sees light at end of tunnel!).