what year would you expect them to start learning long division?

[befuzzled]

Thats it really, my ds is in Y2 and they are doing it now - seems early to me (he has only just got to grips with times tables) but he is my eldest so haven't a clue. I am sure I was older though?

[suburbandream]

My DS1 is in year 5 and they have only really started doing it properly this year

[rabbitstew]

Depends what you mean by long division - they seem to have several ways of showing children how to work things out, these days, including pictorially. I think teaching children the old fashioned way of doing it would normally be done much later than year 2, because they seem to spend most of primary school building up to it (using number lines, using pictures, partitioning, etc, etc, etc, blah dee blah blah....).

[befuzzled]

tbh that is what I would expect more of. They are now doing what I remember (vaguely) to be proper long division. So last term they started doing times tables, fair enough,they all seem to be getting the hang of it - more or less. The teacher would put divisions in as challenges which, in our house, just completely went over his head, really didnt get the concept of dividing by. In fairness, DP sat down and it explained it, and it is coming. Last week they started doing sums like 28 / 2 = with 2/28 written next to it. This week with numbers that don't divide equally so you have to carry one, and then, one that dont divide evenly so you have to do an r 1!!

This is only what I see in the homework book - no idea what they are doing in class. Seems a tad advanced to me. Just wondered if they do it earlier these days. It is an independent school so possibly they are pushing it earlier as they seem to think they are an able class. They seem to have missed the pictorial stuff a bit (maybe I just didn't see it though) - in fact I only got DS to understand it by showing him it with 13 pens, divide in half, one left over etc.

Only divide by 2 so far. Any ideas of things I can do to help him?

[snowball3]

For divide by two, use two circles ( or draw them ) and share the number between the two. Divide by 2 practically, use counters, sweets ( smarties are excellent for maths!) etc to share.

Then use a number line, hop backwards from ( say) 28 in two's. How many hops do we have, link this and show it is the same answer as when you shared.

Then show what happens when we have an odd number, we can't share equally, there is one over ( children like this bit as they get to eat the odd one!) Then show how this works on a number line-we can't hop in two at the end as there is only one left.

When he moves onto dividing by (say) 5, increase the number of circles ( bun trays begin to come in handy!) and the size of the hops!

[mrz]

Things like 28/2 in reception Y1 things like half of 13 in Y2

[powderfreak]

My dd is doing it in year 2. We struggled for a while and explained the concept of 'sharing'

I used two bowls and a packet of dried pasta!!

[rabbitstew]

Oh, I thought you meant long division as in things like 342 divided by 26! (I've always thought long division was dividing by numbers bigger than 2 digits for some reason!). 28/2 is just getting them to recognise that division is the opposite of multiplication, isn't it? And I do remember ds1's class doing finding half of something and a quarter of something (ie half of a half) in year 1.

It does sound as though they are jumping through too many hoops at once, expecting children to understand concepts that haven't been explained to them/relying too much on memorising techniques and tables rather than understanding them. I wouldn't be too happy with that, tbh. There's not much point learning how to do something you simply don't understand if you ever want to be any good at maths. I know some children don't need it, but they could at least introduce division by getting them to divide sweets up between each other, or something else appealing to them! And using number lines, etc, if necessary.

[mrz]

28/2 is just getting them to recognise that division is the opposite of multiplication, isn't it? or physically sharing 28 objects into two sets in reception

[suburbandream]

Rabbitstew - that's what I thought was meant, proper long division with what our teacher called the "bus shelter" shape with the long number inside and the dividing number outside. Dividing by twos, threes etc definitely in year 2. I always tried to do it visually, splitting marbles into bowls, or putting olives on pizzas are our favourites

[ZhenThereWereTwo]

Halving of two digit numbers is done in year 2 as a follow on from doubling. Division with remainders would be extension from this. Use objects such as pasta shells/cubes or draw dots on paper etc... to separate total figure into groups of the dividing number then they can count the piles/groups of dots and count the remainder. In class they would be given blocks or other objects to help them with their working out until they became more confident.

[befuzzled]

yes they are doing the bus shelter thing but afaik only with 2 as the divider or whatever it is called (denominator?) so far - so sounds like this is actually about right for Y2. You're right, maybe long division is when that number is 2 digits or more - my memory of Maths is shocking! I think they do do something in the class with number block type things - you know the plastic numbers that stack up in towers?

Some good ideas here, thanks - esp the Smarties as he loves them and we could eat the ones get right etc. Circles sounds good too - bowls for smarties maybe. Do you think we should just concentrate on divide by 2 / halving now? I feel he needs to "get" the idea of dividing a bigger number by a smaller number still (sure it will suddenly click) but think desribing everything as halving it is confusing him - you cant cut 5 in half mummy etc.

I do wonder if they are explaining things in class and they just aren't listening (few parents reporting the same thing) or whether they are jumping through hoops too quickly. There is a parents evening coming up so I will ask. TBH I think it may just be this year teacher - he is a bit uncommunactive - the others sent home sheets regularly describing new concepts, what they were doing, how to help your child at home etc.

[mrz]

I do lots of "cat bowl maths"

[learnandsay]

The mathematical notation is a bit of a red herring. Doling items like sweets, raisins, dried peas, or whatever into equal portions is all it needs. Once you start drawing bus shelters and carrying one the whole thing turns a simple problem into a headache. They just need to get the hang on dividing things up, initially. Even really small children grasp that concept.