Levels at end of Y3

[PasstheTwiglets]

In her Y2 SATs, DD was a Level 2B in maths. She has been given extra maths tuition this year because she was struggling and they've assessed her at a Level 2B again. Firstly, is a 2B really bad for Y3, does anybody know? I know it's average for Y2. And secondly, should a child be expected to progress up a level during a year?

[mrz]

A 2B is slightly below but not " really bad". A child is expected to make a level progress in two years in KS2. I would be expecting the support to continue.

[PasstheTwiglets]

Do you mean they if she was a 2b at end of Y2 then she should be a 3b by end of Y4?

[lovecheese]

Think so.

[mrz]

yes and a 4B in Y6

[PasstheTwiglets]

thanks, both of you!

[AbigailS]

My school doesn't go up to Y3 (infants school), but 2B sounds OKish. What I would be asking the school is why has the additional support not made some impact?

[PassTheTwiglets]

This is what I was thinking, AbigailS. Staying at 2B sounds to me like she's made no progress at all but I wanted to check that before I talked to her teacher. I think the additional support may have got her up to a 2A (they're just waiting to confirm that) but the extra tuition only started a few weeks ago so she spent most of the year staying the same as last year.

[EllenJaneisnotmyname]

Teachers at my school say that to get the same level in Y3 as in Y2 actually requires an increased knowledge of the curriculum. A Y2 child taking a Y3 paper may not have been taught enough methods to get the same grade as in a Y2 paper. So while the slow progress is disappointing, it doesn't mean that your DD has made no progress at all. But the extra help obviously needs to continue. Have they given you any ideas what unpressured, fun things you could do at home? Maybe a 'fun' maths website?

[PassTheTwiglets]

Oh that's good to know EllenJane, thank you. I've signed her up for Mathletics but it's very hard to get her to do it. What with homework, reading, spelling practice, times table practive and everything else they have to do, there's hardly any time left!

[EllenJaneisnotmyname]

Sounds like you are already doing enough at home, Twiglets!

[ASByatt]

EllenJane - but it depends whether the level is from a paper or is a teacher assessment level. Your coment about it being harder to achieve the same level only works if the assessment is purely from test papers, which in my experience would be unusual (and disappointing, tbh) in Y 3.

[EllenJaneisnotmyname]

I was talking about test papers, ASB. That's still how they assess the children for maths at the school, they've found the APP maths hard to get their heads around!

[ASByatt]

Well that's really poor, to be honest! So they use the childrens' performance on one particular day, during a test, to measure their progress since the start of the school year??????

Plus, the OP did not say that it was a test that had been used to measure the rate of progress, so it could have been teacher assessment, hence my originial comment, IYSWIM.

[IndigoBell]

Is this extra tuition the 10 hours 1:1?

If so, it's a one off thing. You get 10 hours and no more.

[Feenie]

I agree with ASByatt - really poor practice to assess only with a test. How do they assess in Y2 - which HAS to be teacher assessment? APP is a fairly new development - Y2 has been teacher assessment only since 2005!

[Feenie]

Teachers at my school say that to get the same level in Y3 as in Y2 actually requires an increased knowledge of the curriculum. A Y2 child taking a Y3 paper may not have been taught enough methods to get the same grade as in a Y2 paper.

That's the danger of assessing in Y3 using only a test - you aren't comparing like with like. Y2 teacher assessment should use whole school assessment procedures - and so should Y3.

[EllenJaneisnotmyname]

Interesting, even the Y2 teacher assessments used single level SATS papers in May and the children only took each level once IIRC. Time they started using APP more effectively, maybe?

[Feenie]

They do have to use the tests, but they are just a very small part of all the evidence which they have to collect - which is why you would think whole school assessment procedures would exist for this. They only sit one test for each subject.

[PassTheTwiglets]

The 2B for DD was on teacher assesment, yes. And yes, the tuition is the 10 hours 1:1, so it ends soon.

[IndigoBell]

Ok, well she's had the extra tuition not because she's 'really bad' (if you're really bad you don't qualify for the 1:1 tuition) - but because she's at risk of not making 2 levels of progress over 4 years.

I think this is all a bit of a mountain out of a mole hill. A 2b end of Y3 is not great, but it doesn't put her on the SEN register or anything.

School just had some extra 1:1 money to use, and so they have given it to her.

There really is no need to panic yet. Every chance she'll catch up next year and make great progress. - And if she doesn't you can panic next year :)

[Tonksthecat]

As a former Y3 teacher and now having DD in Year 3 be reassured that it's v common for children to appear to dip/stay static in the transition between Y2 and Y3... for all sorts of reasons, mainly the diff between teacher assessment and a one-off national standardised test on one day.

As I understand it they are expected to progress 2 'subsections of levels' (c/b/a) per year so that if they were 2B at the end of Year three they would hopefully progress to be 3C at the end of year four... then 3A at the end of year five and the magical 4b at the end of year six.

So a child at 2B at the end of year 3 making the expected progress would be bang on the government target at the end of Junior school

Here's your handy little counting on reference guide:
1c 1b 1a 2c 2b 2a 3c 3b 3a 4c 4b 4a 5c 5b 5a

[Feenie]

Tonksthecat There is no difference between teacher assessment between Y2 and Y3, unless (possibly) there are separate infant and junior schools (and even then it shouldn't happen with decent moderation).

Y2 assess using teacher assessment, and have to use the same assessment procedures as the rest of the school. The only difference is the tests - but they form a very small part of the assessment, thereby circumventing the problem of 'a one-off national standardised test on one day'.

Theses changes were made in 2005.

Expected progress is one whole level in 2 years - so from the end of Y3 at a 2b that would be a 3b at the end of Y5 and between a 3a/4c at the end of Y6. To reach a 4b, the OP's child will need to make good or better progress somewhere (all perfectly possible, btw).

[Tonksthecat]

Feenie I'm sure ideally there's no difference - and in theory - and in the more streamlined Primary schools.. but overwhelmingly my experience has been different. Sure, that's anecdotal and I have mainly been around separate Junior and Infant schools, but even in playground today at DD's school the mums who were feeling like OP were being confidently told that by the Y 3 teachers.
Anysay SATs are an imperfect tool and not, I think, meant to be definitive

[Feenie]

I agree with you regarding SATs - that's why it's teacher assessment only now at KS1.

Your anecdotal evidence may well fit in with separate Junior/Infant schools, as I've said.

I would say a Y3 teacher in a primary school is definitely not confident in their school's assessment procedures if they are still peddling this old garbage. Assessment procedures changed a long time ago, and in the case of Y2 are moderated by the LEA.