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National curriculum levels - can you imagine any circumstances where it wouold be OK..

(23 Posts)
seeker Fri 17-Jun-11 21:21:09

...for a NT, attentive, engaged, alert, reasonably well behaved child in an OK primary school who got a level 4b in maths at the end of year 3 to have just got a level 4a at the end of year 5?

Tha's one sub level in 3 school years!!!! It sounds outrageous to me and my friend who's child it is is going into school on Monday to have serious words. But I thought I'd ask about it on here in case we'v e missed anything.

gordongrumblebum Fri 17-Jun-11 21:23:35

What level was s/he in Y4?

Goblinchild Fri 17-Jun-11 21:24:01

2 sub levels a year at least. as an absolute minimum he should be 5a.
What were his levels at the end of Y4?
Did the Y3 teacher misjudge his level?
Either way, definitely go in and ask tough questions.

RoadArt Fri 17-Jun-11 21:25:10

maybe the teacher overmarked in Year 3. But I am sure concerns would have been raised in the last two years if progress wasnt consistent. worth a conversation at least.

mrz Fri 17-Jun-11 21:26:05

Could the Y3 teacher have made a mistake? 4B is a very high level for the end of Y3 as it is the expected level at the end of Y6.

pointythings Fri 17-Jun-11 21:26:14

It doesn't sound good, but could their lvel in Yr3 have been incorrect in the first place? Not suggesting that it was though, if our schools are anything to go by they tend to assign levels pretty conservatively so as to leave the child somewhere to progress to and to make sure they are secure in their levels. I'd definitely ask for more info whatever the case! (And I am speaking as parent to a DD likely to get a 4b at the end of Yr 3 and expecting to see progress in Yr4.)

Thenextstage Fri 17-Jun-11 21:27:53

i have known this happen. The true facts were that the Y3 teacher completely misreported the childs true level and throughout the whole of KS2 the other teachers struggled to show that the child had not regressed.
Do you know the child's end of KS1 results?

Feenie Fri 17-Jun-11 21:28:32

Depends how the assessment was made, also - are we talking bad old days of comparison between Y3 optional SAT and Y5 optional SAT? Because that could happen, for various reasons.

If, however, the progress is tracked by rigorous teacher assessment, then yes, that's appalling progress in two years.

mrz Fri 17-Jun-11 21:29:08

There are only 2 years between the end of Y3 and the end of Y5 (expected to make a full level in that time) What was he at the end of Y2 and for SAT

Ingles2 Fri 17-Jun-11 21:34:52

I think it's very very likely the child was overmarked in yr 3.
And even though you are told to expect 2 sub levels progess each year I've found this might not suit the child. Mt G&T maths son usually makes a least a whole level progress each year, whilst my dyspraxic/dyscalculic son made 1 sub level in 3 years followed by a whole level this yr.
It's worth a conversation definitely, but not all guns blazing. her son might have plateaued.

seeker Fri 17-Jun-11 21:36:11

Sorry, meant 2 school years. Don't know what his year 4 level was - but he was a level 3 in year 2.

Pretty sure the 4b was right in year 3 - he's a smart cookie.

I havn't asked her whether she thought he was making progress - you would have though she would have noticed if he wasn;t, wouldn't you?

Feenie Fri 17-Jun-11 21:37:29

2 sub-levels a year is good progress, in Ofsted-speak.
1 and a half sublevels a year is satisfactory, and leads to one whole level in 2 years, as mrz says.

That's only at KS2 - KS1 need more progress targeted (and again, I am talking 'Ofsted'-ese).

mrz Fri 17-Jun-11 21:40:52

A level 3 at the end of Y2 and a 4b a year later is a huge leap! (even for a smart cookie) It means he's made two years progress in a single year hmm I wou;d be questioning the Y3 level personally

Teachermumof3 Fri 17-Jun-11 21:42:55

Progress isn't always in exact measures. If the child was a 3c at the end of Y2 and a 4b at the end of Y3 (which actually seems unlikely)-they would have made 4 sub levels of progress in Y3 which is above average, so it would be quite possible for them to only make one sub level the next year (especially if they were only just a secure level 4 when they began Y5.

It seems more likely that the Y3 teacher has reported the Optional SATs result rather than teacher assessment, which wasn't a true representation of their ability and the Y4/5 teachers have recognised this.

I'd be interested to know what he got at the end of Y4.

PaisleyLeaf Fri 17-Jun-11 21:43:21

End of year 3 to end of year 5 is 2 years, not 3.
I do keep seeing the 2 sub levels a year thing here - but that can't be right can it? It doesn't tally with the national average expected scores of 2b at the end of KS1 and 4b at the end of KS2.

PaisleyLeaf Fri 17-Jun-11 21:45:19

sorry x posted with the 2 year thing while I was trying to work out how DCs go from 2b to only 4b in 4 years with 2 sub levels of progress each year.


Feenie Fri 17-Jun-11 21:46:09

No, 2 sublevels a year is set as a target by schools so they are seen to have high expectations, and would see children achieve more than 2 whole levels between Y2 and Y6 (which is also what Ofsted look for).

It isn't expected progress, or satisfactory progress. But schools have to be seen to set ambitious targets. As several posters have pointed out, children rarely progress in neat jumps like this anyway.

mrz Fri 17-Jun-11 21:46:19

Children are "expected" to make 2 full levels (6 sub levels) progress over KS2 (4 years) so roughly 1 full level every 2 years - in KS2

seeker Fri 17-Jun-11 23:23:51

I assumed that he was a level 3 in year 2 because you can;t get higher than that. If he was near the top of level 3 then 4b at the end of year 3 seems good but not impossibly so, surely?

And even id a clever child had plateaued, is it likely that he would pleateu at a 4a?

Feenie Fri 17-Jun-11 23:25:59

Yes you can, seeker - children can be teacher assessed at any level in Y2. I have known children be assessed at level 4 in Y2 - rarely, but it happens. There is no ceiling on KS1 teacher assessment.

Feenie Fri 17-Jun-11 23:27:59

Smoething is definitely amiss though - as others have said, either the accuracy of teacher assessment (and the sources used) or the lack of progress, and therefore the teaching. Your friend should be asking questions, as you say.

Feenie Fri 17-Jun-11 23:28:16


amistillsexy Fri 17-Jun-11 23:31:24

Sounds to me as though results are being manipulated somewhere.

As others have said, it's possible that Y3 teacher inflated that level.

It's equally possible that the Y5 teacher is supressing the result this year so that progress in Y6 looks stupendous (is the Y5 teacher going to be taking the same class next year by any chance?). Although if that is the Y5 teacher's game, she/he should have looked more closely at the school tracking sheets!

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