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Join our Primary Education forum to discuss starting school and helping your child get the most out of it.

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Join our Primary Education forum to discuss starting school and helping your child get the most out of it.

Primary education

What is the point of a writer for a writing assessment?

28 replies

IndigoBell · 06/05/2011 21:44

Grrrr. DD told me today that her class TA wrote for her in her writing assessment.

There is nothing wrong with her ability to write. She just can't spell. At all. I mean her writing is absolutely unreadable.

But now they are not assessing her ability to write - they're assessing her ability to speak! And then no doubt they'll tell me she's done really well in her assessment and made loads of progress this year.

If her writing is unreadable surely it's only fair that she stays at a level 1c.

I am not happy. They need to teach her to write not pretend that it doesn't matter and pretend she's making progress.

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AbigailS · 06/05/2011 21:48

Very strange! I've scribed for a SEN child who had great ideas and orally compose really long stories, but due to physical disability couldn't get it down. I typed it without punctuation and made her re-read it and correct the punctuation. But scribing just because of weak spelling ... , as you say, what's the point? (ensure decent scores??? I ask cynically)

AbigailS · 06/05/2011 21:50

and can orally compose. Too much end of the week vino!

meditrina · 06/05/2011 22:00

I'd find it strange. I was once scribed for - whilst I had an arm in plaster, and I know it can be indicated for certain SpLDs, but absent a specific cause it doesn't seem right.

bubblecoral · 06/05/2011 22:01

It was probably a task concentrating on creative writing. They want to see what content she is able to provide, without her struggle to write neatly or spell properly holding her back.

Think about it another way. You read a novel. It's in print and it's probably been checked and rechecked by editors and publishers. It does not get to the bookshelf in the authors handwriting. But who get's the royalties for the work? The person who thought of the story and composed it well, or the person that typed it out in the right format and checked the spelling?

Writing and handwriting are two different things, and if your dd needs help with handwriting then that should be dealt with seperatly to her ability to compse a story. But her inability to handwrite well should not completely stifle her creativity and imagination when it comes to her ability to compse a story, or articulate what she means when answering a comprehension question.

I think the school are probably doing the right thing, they just haven't taken the time to explain their proccesses to you.

IndigoBell · 06/05/2011 22:21

She doesn't have any problems with handwriting.

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bubblecoral · 06/05/2011 22:30

But she has problems explaining what she wants to say, and het teacher has difficulty in understanding what she is trying to say.

You described her writing as unreadable twice in your OP.

Spelling is also a different skill to composing a story or answering a comprehension question. It all depends which area of learing the teacher is trying to assess.

You should find that out before you get cross about it, because the teacher may have been doing the right thing. On the other hand, you could be completely justified in being angry about the situation. Until you know what area of writing the teacher was trying to assess, you should reserve judgement.

IndigoBell · 06/05/2011 22:32

The school are trying to do the right thing. It was well intentioned. But I don't think it was the right thing to do.

She writes happily and confidently. She would have completed the assessment no problem at all. They just wouldn't have been able to mark it.

So therefore they have failed to teach her to write. And that is the grade she should get.

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IndigoBell · 06/05/2011 22:33

Sorry, her writing is unreadable because she can't spell. Anything. Not due to poor handwriting.

They were assessing her writing. Ie optional SATs type test.

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bubblecoral · 06/05/2011 22:49

Fair enough, we obviously just have differnt opinions on this issue.

I just think it would be very sad for a child to sit down to a piece of work, think of some fantastic ideas and do her best to put them down on paper, only for an adult to say it was worthless because they couldn't understand it.

I disagree also that they have failed to teach her to write if she can happliy and confidently create a piece of work with clear handwriting and the only thing that lets her down is spelling.

They may have failed to teach her to spell, however children who don't have any SEN learn to spell best by reading, and practicing the spellings they are given at school over and over until they become ingrained. Things you could reinforce at home, and I'm sure you do, especially if that one area is letting her down so much.

IndigoBell · 06/05/2011 23:04

Bubble - they never ever tell her there's anything wrong with her writing. She doesn't even know she can't write. She doesn't even know why she had a scribe.

She can't write because she can't read...... If you can't read or write you have SEN. So she's on the SEN register and having support and interventions coming out of her ears. But she's still not learning anything.

All this writing assessment tested was her speaking ability.

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Ilythia · 06/05/2011 23:35

I tend to agree with you actually OP. I scribe at times for children in an SN Maths class, but never the maths, only the word questions, and that's purely because they need to deal with the numbers, not the words iyswim.

bubblecoral · 06/05/2011 23:43

Ok, you're confusing me now, and I obviously don't know enough about your situation to be of any help. You didn't say that your dd had SEN in your OP, and occasionally schools do use scribes when there is no recognised SEN so I satnd by what I said.

She can't write because she can't read You said earlier she has no problem with handwriting and that she would happily and confidently sit down to do the assesment.

And you said her writing is unreadable because she can't spell. Anything. Not due to poor handwriting.

So you can see why I got confused! I maintain that a child who cannot be understood through what they put on paper, for whatever reason, still has something to offer when it comes to creative writing.

So if she can't read, how do you expect her to spell?

Perhaps that's what you need to concentrate on raising with the school.

I said what I did, partly from professional experience, and partly because my own ds struggles with handwriting. He is 7, and spells phonetically even though he is excellent at reading, and his handwriting is a complete mess. Sometimes to help him with homework, I act as scribe for him while he gets his ideas down, then make him go through what he has 'written' and make him handwrite carefully while prompting him to remember spellings that he does know, but can't remember while he is handwriting and thinking up what he wants to say at the same time.

Anyway, I hope you manage to speak to the school and get the response and support you need from them.

IndigoBell · 07/05/2011 06:37

Well, I still really really don't get it. How can they call it a writing assessment and take her writing level from it if she hasn't written it.

I bet they're going to use this assessment to give her a level 1a and to tell me she's making good progress. Then in Sep her new teacher will once again give her a level 1c. And then they'll target her to make a level 1a by the end of next year as well :(

And they will keep on trotting out the line that they are doing it so she can show what she can do. And this is rubbish. She can't write so that it can be read. And therefore she should fail writing.

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bigTillyMint · 07/05/2011 06:47

Well, as far as I know, scribing for a child in a SATs test would invalidate the test. So they may have been either trying to find out how well she can compose a text, or supporting her to do the same test as her peers without feeling frustrated?

They could use this as proof of the gap between her ability to compose the text and her ability to write legibly? Are they looking to get her a statement? However, to assess a child#s ability to write, they need a piece of their writing to level.

How old is she? I remember reading recently that she has finally learned to read (hooray)?

IndigoBell · 07/05/2011 07:00

Yes, she has very recently (as in last week) learned to read. So there was every reason to expect that her writing would start to improve. So it is even more annoying that they haven't even let her try.

They are not trying for a statement for her. And neither am I.

In fact even the cynical me can't work out what's going on. Can they give her a writing level for a piece of work she hasn't written? I guess they can because scribes are legal for SATs or any other time. And she'd def qualify for one. And they don't need parental permission to use one.

I just don't want her to have one at 8. Because I don't care what grades she gets in primary school. I care about her learning to read and write.

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LIZS · 07/05/2011 07:02

I understand your frustration at their well meant intentions missing the mark. However if this KS1 then the mark is internal only . Maybe they wanted to see what she could potentially achieve were the barrier of writing/spelling removed ie. her processing fo information and language ? If her spellign is a problem it may well interfere in terms of volume produced to time and vocabularly she chooses to use, even if the mechanics are ok.

IndigoBell · 07/05/2011 07:36

It's KS2, but yes the marks are internal only.

But this is exactly my point. Why does it matter what she can 'potentially achieve'. It means diddly squat. What matters is what she can do.

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IndigoBell · 07/05/2011 07:44

Here's an example of her written work:

Rob Luve to splas and pal luve The sus So they went to The peck. The Waws war big and the sun wost awt and the wos sbbe her it bgen to ras Pole and Rob rwe the the wos wit anb the nest bus bac so it cob Pik up hem.

(It is a story about her teddies Rob and Polly going to the beach....)

So while I exaggerate when I say she can't spell any words, it is true that there is no word she will always spell correctly. (Even her name)

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bigTillyMint · 07/05/2011 07:45

I completely understand that you are only interested in what she can do, but the school will be looking at how they can finance supporting her better. To do this, they may be looking at additional funding - hence potentially looking for a statement. To get one, they need to prove the gap between her and her peers, and also perhaps show that she is underachieving compared to her ability.

Does she have 1-1 support with her writing at school - I mean teaching her to spell, not just scribing for her?

IndigoBell · 07/05/2011 07:50

No, this really isn't about funding. They really, really are not looking for a statement for her. It is almost impossible to get a statement for dyslexia, and as she has no behaviour problems not much incentive for them to push for one. But there is absolutely no way she qualifies for one.

She doesn't have 1:1 support, but is on numerous interventions. They spend an awful lot of time attempting to teach her reading and writing.

But that is what class TAs are for...... It's a 3 form entry so they have plenty of TAs and run lots of interventions.

This is the first time they've scribed for her. And hopefully the last :)

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bigTillyMint · 07/05/2011 07:57

OK!

Maybe you should just ask the teacher why they scribed for her?

In terms of interventions, do they have a dyslexia specialist teaching her? Or are they following a specific dyslexia scheme?

IndigoBell · 07/05/2011 08:22

Yes, of course I'll ask the teacher.

And yes, they are doing everything they should be doing for her dyslexia. I have no problems with any of that. None of it works. But they really are doing everything they should be.

I was just trying to find out if there was any explanation I agreed with for her having a scribe.....

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mrz · 07/05/2011 08:24

What I would do in that situation is get the child to write their own piece and then to scribe while he/she tells me what he/she has written. Could this be what happened Indigo?

LIZS · 07/05/2011 08:29

If her thought process and potential is in advance of her current ability to write it down there will come a time , possibly quite soon, when the frustrations could spill over into a behavioural issue. If they can measure that gap now and work towards closing it then surely it would be of benefit ? Have you had an Ed Psych report to assess her learning profile ?

mrz · 07/05/2011 08:34

Rob Luve to splas and pal luve The sus So they went to The peck. The Waws war big and the sun wost awt and the wos sbbe her it bgen to ras Pole and Rob rwe the the wos wit anb the nest bus bac so it cob Pik up hem.

Rob loves to splash and Pal (I know it's Polly) loves the so they went to the (I would have guessed park) beach. The waves were big and the sun was hot and the was her it began to rain Polly and Rob ran the ........next bus back so it could pick up them.

I wouldn't use a scribe for a child who can write that as lots are readable so I agree with you Indigo I can't see why they have used a scribe.

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