Can I just check when exactly reception places are allocated?

[IngridBergmann]

Hiya, excuse starting a new thread about this but my other one quietened down a bit and I need advice on this specific point, if anyone knows their stuff on admissions

Basically, we want to remove ds1 from his school at some point in the near future. However we might be sending him back if things improve, and if his place is still available say in 6 months or so.

Ds2 is starting reception this autumn. We've applied for him based on having a sibling, but obviously if ds1 is leaving to be HE'd (even on a temporary basis) I'm worried ds2 won't get his place.

We applied in January, we find out at the end of March where he's got in, but if we take ds1 out NOW does it mean ds2 might not be allocated the place there? Do they check the school roll when allocating sib places?

Also if they have already allocated ds2's place, we might be free to remove ds1 now - but we can't find out because they won't tell us till march.

I'm not quite sure what to do - wait till we find out where ds2 has been allocated, and then remove ds1 I suppose is the obvious thing to do, but I'm not sure how appeals work and so on and what our best option is.

Thankyou for any insight. I have confused the man at the LEA already this morning and he was veyr nice but didn't really know what to advise

[earwicga]

The school won't decide until they have all applications. Then if over-subscribed will take into account factors such as siblings already on roll. So, if you remove your eldest and places are over-subscribed for your second child then the sibling factor won't be taken into account.

[IngridBergmann]

Thanks, Earwicga. I think we might leave him there till the end of March just in case...which is annoying because he really needs to come out sooner, if things don't improve - he's got a few weeks off right now to give him a break, then half term, then back on 28th...so only another four weeks after that.

Might be able to manage it! At least then it gives him the best chance of going back, if he does want to, later, because ds2 will be there.

[earwicga]

I had a quick google and it looks like March is early for a decision as most authorities do it end of April.

Sounds like a really hard situation to be in.

[onimolap]

Also, check the bumf to see if they require you to state any changes in your personal circumstances right up to the joining child entering the school.

This is usually aimed at those moving house, but would equally apply to sibling priority.

[IngridBergmann]

Thanks, is that right? Yes, we find out on the 31st apparently. Well at least that's a blessing!

Yes, it is a tricky situation but I have faith it will resolve somehow. As long as we try to do the right thing for both boys at the time, iyswim

[IngridBergmann]

Oh gosh Onimolap. I did ask the bloke at the LEA if ds2 would lose his place if ds1 left before september. He said no!

So not sure how that works.
I will check out the website but I doubt it will say about that, it's a bit basic.

[IngridBergmann]

No it doesn't say. Oh dear.

It would be awful to keep ds1 in the school for as long as poss, only to have to tell them he isn't there any more and lose our place.

I think I need the admissions booklet. I didn't have one this year - maybe school will have a spare copy.

[earwicga]

If the LEA man said that the place isn't dependent on your first child staying in the school then that is what will happen. Make a note of his name and the date of the phone call just to be sure. It would be a very spiteful way to run admissions if that were to be the case.

[onimolap]

Better still, get him to put anything on which you may later rely in writing now!

[prh47bridge]

If you need sibling priority to get your younger son into this school you certainly need to keep your older son there until you receive the allocation letter. Even then you may need to be careful. The requirement in the admission criteria for sibling priority should be that your younger son has a sibling at the school who will still be attending the school when he starts. If you take your older son out of school as soon as you receive the offer it is possible the LA will withdraw the place for your younger child. Should that happen you can, of course, appeal against the decision.

On the other hand, if your younger son would get into this school without sibling priority you should take your older son out of school as soon as possible.

Note that the school will not hold the place open for you once you take your older son out of school. If there is a waiting list your son's place will be given to the child at the head of the list. Even if there isn't a waiting list, anyone applying for a place would get your son's place.

You should also be aware that having a younger sibling at there will not automatically get your older son back into this school. If his place has been given to someone else and his year is full the most it will do is put him at the head of the waiting list. In some LAs it won't even do that. In my LA, for example, the rules on sibling priority specifically refer to having an older sibling at the school, so your older son would not get priority based on his younger brother.

[IngridBergmann]

Many thanks - have emailed to ask that specific question, so we have it in writing either way.

I'd rather know now!! The thing is if ds1 does go back in 6 months or whatever, it will help us get him back in and also they will be at the same school, which they are both used to. iyswim.

Thanks again for your help, it's been invaluable.

[prh47bridge]

Lots of posts while I was typing! What has been said to you about keeping your younger son's place is useful but you need to get that in writing - email will do. That way if they withdraw the offer you have evidence of what they have told you.

The admissions booklet will be on your LA's website. It may be difficult to find but it will definitely be there somewhere!

[IngridBergmann]

X posted - sorry. PRH, thankyou very much indeed - I understand the second bit, about getting ds1 back in - that's a risk we'll have to take, though our authority does do the younger sibling=priority thing, it works both ways here, luckily. But still they might fill the place.
It took them c.6 months to fill two places empty from last year though. So it's hard to judge.

The first bit makes sense. He did say that it depends on whether the older sib is in school when younger sib starts, ie in september, but he also said we'd be entitled to keep the place. I didn't realise they could withdraw it.

Oh dear oh dear.

Is it worth leaving him there till the end of March then?
I suppose I'll wait till they confirm whether they could withdraw the place and if they might, then it may not be worth leaving him in school.

It is oversubbed, yes - very much so. Siblings are the only people who really stand a chance.

[IngridBergmann]

it's there, prh, but the link's busted! Has been for months. will try and get one from another school (ours will be suspicious!)

[Panelmember]

You need to read the school's/LEA's allocation criteria.

For siblings, ours defines sibling (which includes step-siblings, other children living in the same house etc) and then says that the sibling must still be at the school when the younger sibling starts. This means that people (say) cannot apply under the sibling criterion if the older sibling is in Year 6 and will have left the school by the time the younger sibling starts. It would also, I think, mean that you couldn't benefit from the sibling criterion if your older child wouldn't be at the school in September.

I haven't come across this situation before, but my hunch is that the LEA would treat the withdrawal of your older child from the school similarly to a change of address. In other words, if you remove your child before the places are allocated, the original application would be treated as withdrawn and reconsidered on the basis of the new information. So, if you qualified for a place under the distance to school criterion you might still get a place. Where (I think) the situation differs from moving house is that if people move house once school places are allocated, they keep the school place (unless there is clear evidence that there has been a fraud, in which case the place can be withdrawn).

But it seems to me that whenever you withdraw your older child, you will fall foul of the requirement that the sibling should be at the school when the younger sibling starts. The argument that your older child has been at the school and might go back there will carry (I suspect) no weight at all. The thinking behind the school's admissions code is that it benefits parents and children to have siblings attending the same school and so schools may if they choose give priority to siblings. It therefore makes no sense to argue that a child should get priority admission to a school just in case their sibling goes there some time in the future. Assuming this is an over-subscribed school which may give your older child's place to a child on thw waiting list, you cannot even be sure that your older child would be re-admitted to the school. I have to say that, if you brought this to appeal, I would require a lot of convincing that the LEA (if it turns out this way) had been wrong not to give your youngest child a place.

Perhaps Admission and Prh47bridge will be along later to offer their wise counsel.

[IngridBergmann]

Thankyou Panelmember - again very helpful post and very informative.

I understand the sibling allocation criteria, of course, and I don't want to take a place from another family who have a child further up the school - but there are not too may siblings for the class afaik, so he place we'd be taking would be from someone else.

Anyway I will wait and see what they say - if they don't withdraw places based on moving house after allocation, I don't see how it's fair to withdraw them based on a change in sibling status, particularly as ds2 is very used to the school and has lots of friends there who he plays with every day at drop off and pick up.

I don't know what our policy is on moving house though either...will wait and see.

[Panelmember]

Ooops. I got called away and lots of posts arrived in the meantime.

Earwigca - The withdrawal of the place (if it happens) wouldn't be about spite. It would be about sticking to the basic principle that to benefit from the priority given to siblings you have to have a sibling actually at the school. The admissions process has to deal with the reality of the situation, not what might or might not be the case weeks or months down the line.

OP - I appreciate that you're in a difficult situation. You need to check and double-check everything with the LEA (and, ideally, get it in writing) before you act.

[Panelmember]

OP - I think there's a real difference between the moving house scenario and withdrawing a sibling.

The distance to school criterion doesn't usually state within the wording of the criterion when the distance will be measured. So LEAs deal with that by measuring at the date of application or as soon as a change of address is notified (if that is before allocation day). But the sibling criterion usually does say within the wording of the criterion that the sibling must be at the school when the younger sibling starts, so whenever you withdraw your child - even if it's the day before term starts - you no longer fulfil the requirements of that criterion.

As I said, there is a logic in saying that siblings should be able to attend school together wherever possible and the schools admission code reflects that. Frankly, if you took this to appeal, you would have an uphill struggle to convince any panel that your younger child deserved to be admitted as a sibling to a school which his sibling wasn't actually attending. None of the usual arguments parents make about bringing the children to school together, the benefit to the younger child of having the older sibling there for moral support etc, would have any credibility.

[IngridBergmann]

I see your point re the benefits of the sibling factor, though in our case it would be nice for ds2 to go somewhere so familiar to him - but anyway, leaving that aside, surely you could apply the very same principle to the moving house scenario in that there would be no real grounds for appealing a place at a school you no longer lived near to.

I wasn't aware that there was a difference in the wording of the criteria and in that case, perhaps there should not be. Lucky for those who are thinking of moving house!

[Bramshott]

Ingrid - if you are really unhappy with the school and their treatment/management of your DS1 re bullying (I've read some of your threads), wouldn't it make much more sense to look for another school for both your DSes?

[IngridBergmann]

I know, Bramshott - and I wish it were that simple. This is actually our equal-nearest school, the other one is not one we like as it's on a very very rough estate. (though the kids might be fine - it just scares me!)

The other school we like is a bit further and though they had a place in y3 when we called, it went before our application was put through (someone applied a week before us).

I am trying to persuade ds1 to come with me and look round some other schools, but he is reluctant - he wants to stay put or be HE'd or if necessary go to the other one we liked, as he was there before - but he's really not keen to start completely afresh somewhere else. It's a real dilemma.

I don't have a problem with the existing school apart fromt he way they have handled this specific relationship - though who knows, there might be a similar issue in ds2's class. Other than that it is a nice place to be.

I've been looking at other schools' websites for weeks now and I will take ds to see some. But it's a fine line when I'm not even sure if he's going back to the current one, and he's already really anxious about everything.

I've prob handled it all really badly.

[Panelmember]

Have you spoken to the Advisory Centre for Education about any of these issues?

Any appeal is about testing whether the LEA has applied its own criteria and the admissions code properly and fairly. That's why I think that the fact that (presumably, if it's the same as our LEA's) the sibling criterion states within its own wording that the sibling has to be there when the younger sibling starts school is going to weigh so heavily against you - there is no wriggle room as there is (arguably) for house moves. None of the stuff about your younger child being familiar with the school will help at all, in that context.

I've said my bit now.

[Bramshott]

The thing is, you say "I don't have a problem with the existing school apart fromt he way they have handled this specific relationship" - but problems between DCs can happen anywhere, what matters is how the school handle it, and this school has repeatedly handled this very badly.

If I were you, I would at least look around a range of other options (by yourself if necessary, before involving DS - children rarely actively want to move schools IME).

[IngridBergmann]

thankyou, yes PM I do understand what you mean - but appeals can also cover 'perverse' or 'illogical' decisions under the heading of unreasonable...

anyway I don't hold out any hope we'd get in on appeal, which is why the initial question about times and dates and what they use to decide iyswim.

Bram, we're looking at another local school tomorrow. It's massive, really huge, but not too far away.
They have a weird discipline policy on the website about cards (like in football matches) and there's a LOT about behaviour - it used to be very rough indeed but has a new head and apparently has got much better.

We'll see what it's like - ds said he is excited about it so that has to be good!

Thanks again.

[Panelmember]

Yes, indeed, but it seems pretty likely that any appeal panel would consider you to be perverse and illogical to be arguing that your younger child should be admitted as the sibling of a child who's actually attending another school or being HE-ed!

Anyway, you are right to be thinking about other schools. You need to think through what would happen if your younger child is admitted to this school but your older child doesn't get back in once the original problems have been dealt with. Finding another school which they could both attend seems a good approach.