I don't understand how dd sees things

[GooseyLoosey]

Dd is 6 and the youngest child in Yr 2 (late Aug birthday). She is a quiet child and is in the middle groups at school for everything.

Her father and I are pretty accademic people. We both have degrees from Oxford and fairly glittering accademic records. Ds(7) learns like a sponge.

dd struggles to understand anything that has any level of abstraction - no matter how many times it is explained. Her homework at the weekend was to work out how many lego bricks it would take to build a 10 stair staircase. She could not understand the instructions or the example (it showed you steps 1, 2 and 3). Even when we built it together, she was still not completely clear what she was supposed to be doing. I just could not understand how she could not see this and it drove me nuts. I have had similar problems explaining fractions and odd numbers. She can answer questions that I have explained to her, but could not apply the same principles in a different context (so if we did fractions looking at slices of cake, she would have problems applying it to a basket of apples).

I worry that she has more problems grasping these things than she should but just sails under the radar at school. Her teacher says everything is fine but she does not always listen to instructions or try as hard as she might. I am not sure this is true - I think she does not understand the instructions and is then unable to set about the task she is given.

Do you think I am worrying about nothing? At her age, I would have got all of this stuff easily and ds certainly did. I have no problems that she does not get it - I just don't know how to work out if she needs help or is just a normal kid.

[Hassled]

Never, never, never compare a younger child with an older child. It achieves nothing. She's her own person, and rates of progress and understanding can be dramatically different. And to be honest, I think she's fine; the cake/apples analogy is visually confusing - removing whole objects from a basket is not the same as seeing a missing slice from a cake.

I have sympathy - as an avid reader I was so frustrated that at 6 DD could barely read at all - I just couldn't understand why she didn't get it. She eventually got an A at A-Level . But you do need to relax - keep the communication with the teacher, and maybe talk to the school SENCo for advice/reassurance. Just don't compare.

[OffToNarnia]

I think you probably are over worrying; however I also think you should be careful. A lot of people.. children/adults ..[myself included!] don't find abstract or spatial type thinking easy. You don't want her to develop a fear or anxiety about the issue. That sort of anxiety can last a life time. Does the school give extra help to children who may 'get left behind' with numbers etc? I would keep an eye on the school and maybe have another word with the teacher as your dd may just need extra time and support to 'get' these concepts that perhaps don't come naturally to her. At least you are aware that the teacher may be wrong in her 'not listening' comments. I used to glaze over and my brain would freeze as a child when confronted with anything abstract. Good luck in supporting your daughter!

[GooseyLoosey]

Thanks both.

I try not to compare her to her brother - its just he sees things the way I do so it reinforces my idea of what is normal.

She gets no extra help from the school - they do not appear to think she has a problem and I can't tell whether she does or not. They could be right.

I worry because she is well behaved and no trouble and (I suspect) can usually copy an answer from someone else, that even if she did have a problem they wouldn't notice.

I try so hard not to be frustrated, but part of me is always saying that she could get it if only she tried. I have made her cry when I have tried to explain things to her and I am so ashamed of this.

[Decorhate]

I think that maths type ability can be innate in some people & then it can be very hard to understand why others don't "get" it. Luckily my dcs all have that ability but I sometimes work with children who don't & I always have to remember that they won't necessarily see the patterns, etc.

Try to think of it as if you were musical or artistic & had a child who wasn't but was good at other things!

On a practical level, the best way to help your dd is by making these things fun. Playing boardgames & card games is a good way to improve basic maths abilities. There are lots of computer packages available too. I would also ensure that she learns her number bonds & times tables by heart as rapid recall of these will help her later on (some schools concentrate more on the understanding side of things at the expense of rote learning which is needed too)

[IndigoBell]

I disagree :)

I think you have reason to worry.

Schools always tell you everything is fine. She's an Aug birthday etc, etc.

Is she OK at the rest of Maths? Does she know her 2, 5 and 10 times table? Her number bonds to 10 and 20?

[GooseyLoosey]

IndigoBell - she can do tables - she is good at learning by rote, but if you asked her what 15 x 10 was, I am not sure that she could get there. She seems to do addition and subtraction OK, but if I watch her closely, I suspect that she is counting forwards and backwards - but does it very quickly.

What makes you think there is a problem?

[FreudianSlippery]

Agree about not comparing :) (stepmum of twins lol)

Have you thought about what 'learning style' she is? Visual, auditory, kinaesthetic?

IME schools rarely cater for a range of learning styles and many children suffer for it.

[GooseyLoosey]

She deffinately does better visually as less abstract though is required.

ds has an IQ of 157 and we have struggled with him. I do not expect dd to be the same, but I think that is why I am finding it very difficult to work out what she should be able to do.

[bigTillyMint]

I think that the problem is that your DS is clearly very bright, (how do you know his IQ - it's not tested in state primary schools), and your DD sounds perfectly normal.

Most children of her age sould be counting forwards and backwards to add / subtract. There is nothing abnormal about it!

[TeenageWildlife]

deffinately With your glittering academic record. Wow.

[Elibean]

Goosey, my dd is an autumn born Y2, best reader in her class. She found maths much much harder than literacy, and far harder than I did at her age - but she's suddenly (since turning 7) 'got it'.

There are also physiological changes that happen around the age of 7-8, which mean that children become more capable of abstract thought processes - so overall, I would say its a little early to be worrying.

dd's friend, also in Y2 and also bright, is an August baby - she cannot grasp the maths steps that have now 'clicked' for dd. But I know she will. Honestly, keep an eye out (you will anyway ) as the year goes on, but I'd be willing to bet anything that she will pick it up soon.

Its hard not projecting our own expectations/parameters onto our kids, you have my sympathy

[seeker]

What NC level is she working at?

[Snuppeline]

Hiya, in addition to the things above she may have some learning difficulty, like dyspraxia or the maths variety though what you describe needen't be that at all. I've got dyspraxia and struggled with maths and applying formula/rules/principles outside original examples. It might be worth just keeping at the back of your mind and perhaps reading up on it. If you think your daughter may have it then you can explore that with the school.

By the way, despite having dyslexia and dyspraxia I'm doing a PhD at a Russell Group university at the moment, and use statistics quite a lot so if your daughter have it its not the end of the world!

[Cortina]

How many 6 year olds would know the answer to 16 x 10 Goosey? You make it sound like it's fairly commonplace for a bright child to instantly grasp the answer. Even those very academically ahead might puzzle, I know I have to think!

[WriterofDreams]

I remember my mum trying to explain fractions to my older sister when we were little (I was about 7, she about 8). She didn't get it at all while I picked up the concept just from listening to my mum, even though we hadn't covered it in school yet. I was just more academically minded than my sister, there was nothing wrong with her at all. Now we're adults, she has a responsible, well paid job and I'm a SAHM so it's made absolutely no difference to us. Yes I sailed through school with fantastic results but IME that doesn't make life easier at all and I don't think anyone should focus on that sort of success for their children. As long as your DD is secure and happy she will be fine.

[Chandon]

what she does sounds normal for her age.

It can be baffling if your child has other strengths and weaknesses than you and your partner.

DH and I find languages easy, we both speak 4 (Dh now learning his 5th, as he needs it for work), and we were BAFFLED by our oldest DS who is so much like us in many ways, struggling with languages (we tried to raise him bilingual, as I am not English and wanted him to learn my language too) but we had to give up.

The teacher tells me he is behind with language development, but really good with abstract stuff, spatial awareness etc. So different from us!

Kids are not copies of their parents.

Please be patient.

Also, remember that in many civilised countries children do not do any reading, writing, maths until they are 6 or 7 and then learn it really quickly.

I do think it is a cultural thing here to expect so much of children so small, and it's not always great for the child.

Let kids be kids, she is only 6.

[ponyprincess]

I agree she sounds normal for age and the things you describe would not worry me.

I think it is normal for learning to be tied to concrete examples at first, and for it to take time and many more examples for children to understand an abstract rule or concept. If she can understand the specific examples, the generalisation will probably come in time.

[sarahfreck]

Well - it is difficult if your only other comparison is your ds with an IQ of over 150!

As she is in the middle groups at school and school seem happy with her, it is likely you have a daughter of average ability.

It is however possible that she is above average with some type of specific learning difficulty.

It can be difficult to tell the difference, but I personally would put some weight on a parent's "gut feeling". Though there are of course some parents who over worry or expect too much from their children.

The following may be useful pointers:

Does she seem stressed or frustrated by school work? Is she upset in any way? Does her performance in one area of the curriculum seem massively out of kilter with her performance in another?
When she has friends round for tea does she seem less able to understand/follow instructions than they do?
The fact that the teacher thinks she does not listen/try hard, but you are not so sure about this could possibly be an indicator of a specific difficulty. Do you think it is the understanding that is the problem or the ability to follow a series of instructions? Could she do the task if broken into smaller steps?
Dyslexia, dyspraxia, auditory processing disorder, ADD (does not need to be hyperactive) and other problems can all lead to difficulties in understanding and following instructions but you would need a diagnosis by a paediatrician or Educational Psychologist.

For what it is worth, I don't think the difficulties you describe would be that unusual in a Year 2 child.

[UptoapointLordCopper]

From the example you give (looking at slices of cake for fractions and expecting concept to be applied to basket of apples) I think you need to question your assumptions a bit more! It's not obvious that half a cake is the same concept as 6 out of 12 apples to someone who has not been dealing with these things for the past 20-30 years (sorry don't know how old you are). Slow down a bit and get back to basics! More examples and more examples. Patience!

[sarahfreck]

PS. I tutor maths over a range of ages and stages and I feel that we expect children to move from the concrete to abstract far too quickly in most cases. To help with maths I'd advise giving her lots and lots of fun activities using concrete materials (as it seems you are doing). Transfer of fraction concepts from shape (cake or pizza) to number (apples) is a hard one. I usually get children to practise and understand the two concepts separately until they are really confident.

[crazygracieuk]

I think that you are right to keep an eye on things because nobody wants to write off their child as being bad at maths and leaving them to languish further.

My daughter is in Y3 and learns maths best when there are physical objects/props to aid her learning and after a while she will "get" it. For example, I remember her struggling with how to work out a number +10 until she realised it was the number below on a 100 grid.

At school they seem to do a week or 2 of a topic in maths then revisit it later. The teacher said that this has proved the best way to teach topics because it sometimes takes a few visits for children to understand topics.

[GooseyLoosey]

Thanks again all. Another example - last night I was doing some simple maths with her - taking 2 away from a number 5 times - so 41-39-37-35-33-31. She insisted that 33-2 was 30. When I told her to look again, she came back with 29.

Snuppeline - I do worry that there might be an underlying issue - but I have no idea what it might be and if the school thinks there is nothing wrong - what do I do?

Elibean, Chandon - you are right, I am guilty of projecting my expectations on to her and thinking that she will be just like me. I know she is not. I just can't work out what I should expect of her as her own person.

Seeker - at the end of Yr 1, she got 2b for both literacy and numeracy, so there was no indication of any problems with attainment. However, in almost every area, the teacher had marked her down for effort (depite never having mentioned anything to me). I have focused a lot on trying hard this year, but she often gives off vibes of not trying at all. However, I am increasingly worried that perhaps she is trying and just does not get it.

bigTillyMint - ds was assessed by an ed psych because of other issues. The IQ result was kind of a bi-product. I feel guilty that I have rather focused on ds and his problems to the exclusion of dd.

TeenageWildlife - how helpful. Feel better now?

[GooseyLoosey]

sarahfreck - that's interesting. Because of ds, I have completely lost sight of what it is reasonable to expect a 6 year old child to achieve. I am having problems working out where to peg my expectations and when I should press for help for dd.

Because ds was in the same class last year I have lots of experience with the teacher. He is great a delivering interesting lessons and motivating the kids, but not so great at dealing with any child who does not conform to the norm.

[OffToNarnia]

I think your expectations may be a little high. I'd have freaked at your 'simple maths' at 6 years old. Try not to make her anxious.

[Acanthus]

I think you should ease off, be careful she doesn't start to get "brain freeze" when you ask her things. She will pick up on your impatience however hard you try. I have been in a similar position with a super-bright first child and the younger one seeming less so. But he's coming on now (aged nearly 10). Give her time, buy resources even for really easy maths so you can see how it is taught, rather than doing it yourself.