5 year old socially marginalised

[margaret1]

DD2 is in Yr1. I would describe her as bright but emotionally immature. She has a lot of energy, is much loved by people who know her, but can be a bit of a handful. She seemed to make a good start to school last year - liked the other kids and formed a close friendship quite quickly with one girl of similar age, to the extent the teacher even commented on what a lovely friendship it was. I got on well with the child's mother, and she seemed to seek my company out as much as the other way round. But when I asked her daughter on a playdate it was politely turned down. And then a second time a little more explicitly (yes, I was thick enough not to get the message first time, but I seriously wasn't expecting it). Her child did go on playdates with other children though. And the mother continues to act as though nothing is untoward, stopping for chats etc.

I've gone into detail describing this situation, as it proved to be the shape of things to come.

Round about the time my dd started going to school fulltime she had some behavioural problems, involving refusing to sit still and being defiant, to the extent she was kept in at playtime a couple of times etc. The situation was not helped because she's quick at reading and numbers, so has always been placed in the 'top' group with children who are at least six months older than her and better behaved.

We worked with the teacher, and her behaviour is much improved. She's doing well in class, but not making any headway socially.
I have arranged playdates with other girls in the class that dd2 seems to like, with limited success. We've had a couple accepted but never reciprocated, and others have made repeat excuses along the lines of 'sorry, she's doing XX on that day'. She's only ever had one spontaneous playdate invitation (i.e. where I haven't done any spadework first). We invited a reasonable mix of kids to her party last year but roughly half didn't even RSVP. I did follow up close to the date by asking people if their kids could make it as I had to confirm numbers. At least one of the mothers seemed to find this freaky, and continues to stare at me like I have grown an extra head whenever she passes in the playground (in fairness, she is at least 15 years younger than me, which probably doesn't help :) Predictably, my dd also receives very few party invitations, and not from the children she's identified as her friends.

The trouble is, she's starting to notice, and ask questions like 'am I invited to so and so's party?' and 'when can I go round to xx's house?'. Situation not helped by the fact that dd1 (who is five years older) has always had a riproaring social life, lots of friends/constant invitations and events to attend. In fact dd2 spends a lot of time socialising with younger siblings of dd1's friends (none in her year at school more's the pity).

My strategy has been to try and steer dd2 toward the couple of kids with mothers who are willing to play ball. I have also discussed the situation with the teacher and suggested dd might be better off in a different class next year. She has been understanding, but made it clear the school has no intention of mixing the classes in this year group up at the end of this year.

I'm starting to think a move to another school and a 'fresh start' might be the only solution. Is this type of thing unusual? Have we just landed in a particularly cliquey group of parents? Sorry for the long drawnout sob story, but any advice anyone can offer would be very greatly received!

[LB29]

I think you are worrying too much! Don't push for playdates just let her make her own friends. When she asks why she isn't invited to parties just say that perhaps there were a limited number of children invited.

[MarineIguana]

It's difficult - there is (well in some schools) quite a big element of playdates and who knows who and who's been to whose house. My DS is similar, a bit eccentric, emotionally a bit unstable and confused, very bad at remembering people's names etc, but when people get to know him and click with him he can make firm friendships. But that means there are a good number of kids who don't "get" him and he doesn't get on with.

I've tried but at the moment I'm slightly reigning in my efforts to get to know other families and taking it slowly. It's exhausting trying to sort out a social life for a child it doesn't come naturally to, and tiring for them too. My DS, and your DD, may just be the kind of person who has a few close friends and takes time to make them. School can be a difficult environment if you're like that (as I was too).

As it's going to be christmas I'd focus on non-school things/friends and take the pressure off.

[magicmummy1]

Have you tried asking the teacher why she might have trouble making friends? If you can find out what exactly is holding her back, it might be easier to help her develop the social skills that she needs.

It's a bit of a mystery to me as to what makes children popular or otherwise, but your dd is still very young and things can change a lot when they're still so small, so I really don't think you should worry too much about it. Still, I can understand why it would bother you - we all want our kids to be happy, and forming good friendships is obviously a part of that.

[jkit]

This happened to my DD when she started school and continued until she left at the end of Y2. I put it down to the fact that the other mothers were very cliquey, all the girls in her class had been to pre-school together, not my DD, and I worked when none of the other mothers did. I persevered with a couple of play dates but mainly made sure she had friends outside of school, Ballet etc and played alot with her cousin who lives nearby. DD is now in Y4 in a different school and has fitted in really well with loads of friends, playdates and sleepovers. Interestingly nearly all the other mothers work at this school.

[daftyeggcup]

I'm in the same boat - in fact I came on here for the first time tonight because I needed to find out if it was just me being an awful parent. I don't know what to do.

My boy is in year 1 too. Had a great start to reception - he's funny and clever and kind and quirky and all those things mothers say about their sons. But his behaviour has gone down hill recently. He's been acting up and just generally being silly. And I managed to get him to talk today about why he'd been told off for fighting and he said it was because he was chasning someone. And I ask why and he says its to get them to play with him. A bit of further chat and he tells me he has no friends anymore and he feels left out. All said with shame.

Like you, my boy goes to a school where everyone seems quite cliquey. Most people went to pre-school together and most other mothers don't have to work full time, or chose not to. Fair play to them. Not something I am able to do, but I'm starting to feel that my boys situation is down to me not being able to to facilitate any play dates to the extent of the other parents, that we've been left behind when it comes to the social manouvering. He goes to after school club every day because my husband and I both work full time.

He made me cry. He told me about this great idea for a game he has, but that no one will play with him and so he just stands in the playground and thinks about how great it would be and sees it in his head and sees him playing with the other people.

I feel so bad. I'm crying as I write this. I don't know what to do to help him and I always thought I would be able to. I don't want him to be lonely.

[hester]

margaret, dafty, I don't have any useful advice, but just wanted to send my sympathies. I was the child at primary school who had no friends, and my heart goes out to your children, it really does. I'm not sure what you can do... I worked out for myself how to do what it took to get friends (not all of it positive ) but it took me years to get there.

[figcake]

dafty - that is really sad but at least you should take comfort from the fact that your ds is able to articulate his feelings so well - my ds is in the same position but has not quite noticed the extent to which he is pushed aside. This term, he has been trying to make friends with the 'football group' in the playground and has been saying 'i love football' even though he does not really know anything about it. Today he said 'I want to be a girl so that A will invite me to her house' several times

[Greeninkmama]

My DD goes to a school with a wide catchment area and a fair number of deprived kids. There are some regular playdates (she is in Y2) but not that many because people live quite a way from each other. By contrast I have lots of friends whose kids have gone to the Ofsted-outstanding middle-class community schools that I really wanted for my DD. Their kids seem to either do lots of playdates, or their mothers are permanently worrying about why they have no friends. It's making me realise that going to a less desirable school has some real advantages; there just isn't this kind of angst about the playdate thing.

I am not minimising your distress margaret - I think I would be worrying about all this too if I had got the school I wanted. But I truly don't think 5-year-olds should be going to strangers' houses when they are tired after a full day of school. If your DD is young for her age, she is better off coming home with you.

We see friends we have known for several years, and my daughter goes to play at a neighbouring child's house from time to time. We also do ballet so she sees the same girls there each week. I think maybe all this playdate stuff is more trouble than it is worth.

[daftyeggcup]

I'm wishing that he didn't notice it figcake...because its really shocked me.

I had no idea this was going on, that maybe this is why he's playing up at school. The teacher said to me last week that he's always trying to be the centre of attention, that if people notice him it encourages him and I didn't think it meant in any way that he was feeling hurt that people weren't noticing him at all....I mean, he's pretty noticeable..he's the tallest and loudest in the class.

It's just such a kid-logic way of trying to deal with a problem isn't it? They like football so if I like football they will like me. They ignore me so if I am louder they won't ignore me.

I guess it hurts so much because its like the first true step on a life journey, the first knock that I've ever noticed and there really is not much I can do about shielding him from it....short of give up my job so that I can be at the school gate every evening to make friends with the mums to a point where we can take their kids home so that they can get to know my boy and how fab he is.

[RoadArt]

How about trying a different tactic.

try out of school events, parks, playgrounds. Quite often people have a regular routine that you could may be "just be there" on certain nights which could build up into friendship/acquantancies.

If parents dont want your child for playdates whatever the reason, then you must really not get stressed and worry about it, because your child will pick up on this and it will make the situation worse.

Parents are finnicky, there is not other word for it. No matter how good you see a friendship, the other parent doesnt. No matter how much you feel you want your child to play after school with another child, the other parent doesnt. (Am generalising).

Its sometimes best to keep school friends at school, and develop new friends outside of school.

Also, chat to your teacher and try and get her views on friendship issues. Are there any? Having parents refusing children is not always true indication of how your child is behaving. However, if other kids go home and constantly talk about a particular child and highlight the worse things they do, constantly, then parents do build up the wrong image of a child, and more often than not, the comments are not justified.

Kids are not naughty. They might have issues that good teachers can help sort out, with the help of parents and sometimes other parties.

Communication with the teacher at this time is really important.

Dont worry about not being invited and dont let your Dd become hung up on this. Explain that xxx can only invite a few children.

Parents also dont always want other kids going to their houses. It can be too much hassle.

I hope your DD is ok, I am sure she is actually very popular in the class.

[figcake]

Green - I agree. My DCs go to one such "Ofsted-outstanding middle-class community school" and are being given so much homework now that if I were to ship them off on various play-dates during the week they would not be able to keep up or we would have to compromise on family time and (very important) 'doing nothing' time.

The cliques whom I envied and wasted emotions over during reception seem kind of stuck (even a bit fed up) of each other and being uber-competitive amongst themselves, it is funny to observe the way in which some of them diplomatically explain themselves OUT of meeting up during the week.

We were finally 'offered admission' into the main clique by one of the less-haughty mums even though DS made it clear that he was not interested. I thought long and hard before dismissing the idea of a play-date - I can't believe how much I dreaded being asked.

I like being known as an independent parent, I get on well with other indies and that is more than enough for me and apparently the DCs too.

"But I truly don't think 5-year-olds should be going to strangers' houses when they are tired after a full day of school." Completely agree with this too. I had an uncomfortable moment outside DDs classroom last week. There is a really beautiful little blonde girl whose parents (not brought up in the local area) seem all too keen to ship her off anywhere and everywhere for some couple time. She had been for a sleepover at another girl's house the night before (just one invited). The other girl's dad (really dodgy looking) was insisting on her planting a kiss on his face - I mean really insisting, pulling her onto him, eye contact etc. and she was giggling and squealing and running off repeatedly. This went on for a good ten minutes. He was completely ignoring his own daughter even though he should surely have kissed her goodbye at least once during this time. I am not insinuating anything but it seemed odd, I would not have been happy if it was my DD given that the girls have only been friends for a few months. I don't think I am laid-back enough to ever accept sleepovers on their behalf!

[MarineIguana]

This is so true figcake - my DS just loves to get in and collapse on the sofa, or go upstairs and play with lego (or in summer mooch around in the garden) - and while he gets excited about the idea of friends coming round, the reality is usually quite stressful for him. Also for me, as I have a small baby too and it's difficult to marshall arguments, or guests who are destructive.

(Oh and for any pedants I meant reining earlier not reigning )

[MollieO]

Ds (6) doesn't get invited to playdates either. Probably because I work full time and am never around during the week to organise anything or reciprocate. It used to worry me but I've spoken to other mums in the year whose dcs are in the same position. There seems to be a hardcore of dcs that do playdates all the time and their mums seem to be very vocal about it.

Does your dd do any activities outside school? That may be a way of making other friends. I wonder if girls notice friendships more than boys? Ds doesn't seem bothered if he is invited to a party or not and rarely accepts the invites he gets.

[ShanahansRevenge]

I think it's something which our generation is prticlaly osessed with and for no good reason.

At 5 there is no need oo push them into socialising out of school. There is no need to stress either...like others have said, some parents won't play ball unless they know yu well and others are just too busy with work.

One Mum I know is paranoid about accepting dates because she works all the time and cannot reciprocate.


If you are really worried you ought to seek advice from the teacher...if DD has kids to ply with in the playground and is happy then you need to stop thinking about it. It's not till they get to 10 plus that they are in a real position to choose friends...as before then most friendships are engineered by parents.

At ten plus a lot of kids come into their own and make tonnes of mates.

[mosschops30]

you do sound quite needy and a bit obsessed about this.
ds1 is 5 and went on one playdate last year in reception, I did invite the child back out of guilt.
He hasnt been on any others and I havemt asked anyone else.

Half the class replied to his joint party, and I ended up chasing them, but this is just how it is, people forget, or lose invites, its no big deal.

I am friendly with a couple of the parents, will say hi to others and some I ignore because theyre cliquey and I havent got time for all that shite.

If you continue like this you will be delerious by the time she gets to high school. Dont sweat the small stuff, I think your behaviour and need to be liked and accepted is rubbing off on your dd. Sorry thats just my opinion.

[herbgarden]

I work part time and to be honest have found the post school playdate thing more trouble than it's worth - I have only a couple of days off a week and we've been on one or two and the kids are very tired a bit stroppy and I have to go too with DD as DS won't be left yet so if I get on with the parent then fine otherwise I have to make polite conversation for an hour or so and commandeer the "playing" in the meantime whilst also making sure DD is fine. I'd rather be at home tbh with DS slobbing on the sofa with the TV now than going through that. We do a couple of after school things (swimming etc) activity based which DS loves far more. When he's older, fine but for now....I know that's not answering your point but I've also realised that at this young age they flip from one thing to another from week to week that I'm sure in a couple more years things could be very different for your DD....

[figcake]

I expect your school runs after-school clubs - this could be a good way of enabling your ds to socialise with other children away from the pressure of the classroom. Mind you, my DS does not really go the distance with these

[figcake]

I meant to add that I took the lack of social invites particularly badly last year because ds had a full schedule of playdates from birth owing to the fact that I was popular amongst the NCT group/ yummy mummy playgroup brigade. By age 2 their children started pairing off and poor DS (who spoke later than some) would just be left sitting there in the corner - I felt crap having to make excuses for him and even more crap pretending that all was well. On one occasion, a 1-1 playdate, the little girl actually went upstairs a shut the door of her bedroom (telling her mother that she did not want DS to come round) even though DS (always gentle and keen to share toys) had known her from birth and was keen to play with her.

The invitations started tailing off, the few good friends (whom I could still count on) moved away. By school age, I knew the score

[BranchingOut]

Hi Margaret,

I have taught Reception and Year 1 many times so have a good idea of the dynamics amongst little girls of this age. I apologise if they might be uncomfortable to consider, but I wonder if they are near the truth.

Do you think that the other girls might actually be a bit frightened of your daughter? I have often seen instances where girls who are a bit of a handful actually end up quite isolated as they tend to approach play in quite a dominant way, the other girls don't like it and then, quite reasonably, refuse.

YOu may find a social skills programme quite useful eg. actively teaching your DD how to approach others, resolve differences etc.

LOok at 'Project Achieve' or possibly 'social stories' online.

I also suspect that exaggerated tales of your daughter's 'naughtiness' have gone home. Y1's love to spin a good yarn about how naughty x was, so the other parents may have a negative view of her. I think the only way to tackle this is to be up front with other parents eg. say that you are so pleased that her behaviour is better now and you would love to help her build friendships.

Also, go back and talk to the teacher. See if he or she has any ideas to help.