Almost 5. At least 4 accidents today. End of my rope.

[bunique]

Almost 5 year old DD. Has never been reliably dry in the day since she came out of nappies at 2 but is showing absolutely no signs of improvement. No UTI. GP clueless (told me to see HV). HV recommended drinking more but it is impossible to force her to drink more in the day, I'm constantly reminding her to drink and we take water everywhere with us. Missed a day out today because I had to clean up an accident which would have made us late for what we had planned. Had to leave a play date early last week because she had wet through all the changes of clothes I'd brought out with us. I don't want to take her out anywhere anymore. Doesn't care about sitting in wet clothes. Will get herself changed and will clean up floor when told to. School next week and I'm sat here in tears yet again feeling I have completely failed at this. No one I know seems to be having this problem and I can't see any end in sight. Has anyone got any words of wisdom? I don't know what to say to any HCP that will get them to take this seriously and even if they did I don't know what else to do

[BifsWif]

I would ask to see another GP.

Is she getting the 'urge' to go?

[BifsWif]

And don't cry, you haven't failed

[AnnaD2]

Feeling your pain. My 4.5 year old DS starts school next week and had 2 accidents today and 3 yesterday! I had to put myself in time out today to stop me saying something I might regret! I didn't find our gp particularly helpful; but I have found the best thing to do is to keep a diary toileting to show them. You can request a referral to an incontinence nurse or similar. Also, talk to the school and your DD about a plan. I am
Hoping ours can use a sticker chart and regular reminders. And know it's not your fault!! I am struggling with this too - some children just find some things harder. It won't always be like this

[bunique]

BifsWif - not always. She'll tell me she needs a wee but probably 50% or more of the time she's already wet.

AnnaD2 - sorry you're suffering the same! The advice from the HV was not to remind ours as she thought she has lost the sensation of feeling full and her bladder is likely in constant spasm so doing loads of little wees throughout the day instead of fewer, bigger wees that she might have more control over. But despite all the drinking it's not really making any discernible difference!

Everyone has always said "school is ages away, she'll be fine" and yet here we are and she's going to be that kid, going to school with a bag full of spare knickers and uniform . Going to start writing it all down and present it all to HV/GP again and see if they'll refer for further investigation; whether it'll make any difference though...!

[SearchingforSleep]

I'm so sorry to hear you are going through this. I was coming on tonight intending to start a support thread to see if anyone else was going through similar and spotted your thread which sounds horribly familiar. I'm afraid I haven't really got anything useful to suggest as I think you are further down the line than us. DD is just turning 4 and refused nappies 18 months ago. Since then she has never been dry - wets herself 2-3 times a day on average but sometimes as much as 5 or 6 times. About once a month she makes it through a whole day without an accident. There has been no change in frequency of accidents over the last 1.5 years. I went to the GP recently and she told me it was normal. Really???
Useful to know there is such a thing as an incontinence nurse - I had no idea.
We are fortunate that DD has another year before school but I really feel for you both and your DDs starting school. It's an absolute nightmare.
for you both...

[bunique]

I think until you've actually lived it, it's hard to comprehend how much of a problem it really is, and that it doesn't feel at all "normal"! The GP we saw didn't have a clue what to do. I just came away feeling like an even more useless parent.

We desperately need to carpet our hall stairs and landing before the baby gets mobile but I daren't because I know it will just end up wet every day, time and time again! We can't go anywhere without multiple changes of clothes, we have to be near a toilet all the time because when she needs to go it's usually urgent if not already too late. Well meaning people say "have you tried...?" and I feel like shaking them because all the sticker charts, reminders, praise and threats in the world cannot keep her dry. It's mortifying to have to walk a wet child home through the high street because she has peed through every spare pair of knickers. And there's just no progress and no end in sight.

Sorry Searching, I am not filling you with confidence I'm sure! It's all got too much for me today

[Littlefish]

Is there any chance she could be constipated? From what I've read, pressure from the bowel can cause wee accidents.

[Littlefish]

Also, what is she drinking? Is it water or squash?

Have you had a look at the ERIC website?

[steppemum]

I think there are several stages, and I found it helpful to see which ones my dcs could do, to help make a plan.

so, if she goes to the toilet, can she chose to wee? In other words does he have enough bladder control so she can chose to wee if she wants to?

Does she have an urge to wee, so feels it before it happens?

Does she know what a full bladder feels like?

Does she ever start to wee and try to run to the loo?

On the wet everywhere thing , using the toweling padded knickers does help the wee to stay somewhat contained, so fewer actual puddles.

Please go back to Gp and ask for referral. Dd1 had poor bladder control starting school. She had about 1-2 wee accidents per week and school thought that was a lot, but were very good with her and helpful.

[bunique]

Christ, if school felt 1-2 a week was a lot, we have no hope!

Nurse and GP have both felt her tummy and said they couldn't feel a mass but I'm fairly sure the only way to rule it out completely is ultrasound? She only ever drinks water. I've scoured ERIC many times but the difficulty seems to be getting the GP to take it seriously enough to refer. I suspect she has an over active bladder but beyond that suspicion I've no idea how to "fix" it!

[bunique]

I think she knows what a full bladder feels like - in the car yesterday, 10 minutes from home, she told me she needed a wee and was able to hold it until we got in the front door and made it to the toilet. But on other days she'll have wet through her seat before she even tells us she needs to go. There's no rhyme or reason to it really.

[bunique]

steppemum At what stage did things get better for your DD?

[MajesticWhine]

Hi, I wanted to post because I am in a similar position, except DD is 5.5 and is going into year 1. She does dribbles though rather than big accidents and it goes unnoticed at school. She doesn't care too much about having damp knickers. I don't have any big solution, but I just wanted to share, so you know you are not the only one.

I recently went to the GP about it, and straight away was referred for an ultrasound scan just to check for any abnormality of the urinary tract. She said highly unlikely to be that, and more likely a behavioural issue. But at least we will hopefully have that ruled out. In the mean time, I have started yet another attempt at star charts and bribes along with more drinks during the day. I hear you, it's exhausting, but I feel like we might be making a bit of progress. My suspicion is that it's an attention deficit type thing, because DD's concentration and attention span is also a bit poor (IMO) and these two things are often related I have read. So assuming the scan is normal, I will be back to the GP asking for another referral I think.

[steppemum]

Op - dd1 had a very poor wee signal, so she was out of nappies early, but starting school still had a lot of accidents, because as soon as she was very slightly distracted she didn't notice her urge to wee.

It got better through reception, but we worked hard at it. At home it wasn't such an issue as I sent her to the loo every 2 hours, so just before her bladder was full. At school, the lovely TA sent her to the loo before she went out to play, and before she went to lunch, and that stopped load s of accidents. Then I put a note in her lunch box, when she saw the smiley face she was supposed to go to the loo, that worked too.

But it sounds to me as if you aren't quite at that point yet.

Interestingly she has never drunk much, has to be encouraged to drink.
Also, she was dry at night within days of coming out of day nappies, so i knew it wasn't really a bladder issue, more that she didn't notice/feel the wee prompt.

[SearchingforSleep]

Very much hope today is a better day for all those struggling with frequent accidents.
I started yesterday having to strip my bed because bed and pillow had been weed on so my day has started better already!

I totally understand what you are saying Bunique about how much of a problem it is. The piles of spare clothes every time you leave the house and constantly being vigilant- whose knee is she sat on, how much has she had to drink, how long ago did she last wee etc etc. She has totally soaked my trousers when we've been out and I live in fear of her doing it to a family friend.

Really useful to hear the advice from others who are going through similar and perhaps further down the line than us. Thank you all for sharing. I will make a renewed effort to encourage more drinking. DD has started trying to limit how much she drinks to try to avoid accidents which is totally heartbreaking. I've got to the point where I think I will offer her the option of using nappies for a while which she hasn't been in since she was 2. I suspect it is probably totally against the guidance but there has been no progress at all with what we are currently doing and I'd just like her to be able to relax about weeing and give her body a few more months to develop and then try again in the hope that it will break the cycle.

[leccybill]

DD is 5.5. Still having daytime accidents about 4 x week and a couple of nights a week. She doesn't seem to feel the urge/frightened of missing out so doesn't go.

GP fobbed me off too but school has a drop-in with nurse who referred us to Continence team straight away, waited 8 weeks for appt, going next week.
Good luck. I know how you feel - it's hard when you hear people saying 'oh he just trained himself overnight' about their two year old, and you're three years down the line still saying 'do you need a wee' every five seconds.

[bunique]

Glad your day has started better Searching!

leccybill I'd be really interested to hear how you get on. I'm going to get the first couple of school weeks out the way, just to see if the change of scenery/routine leads to any differences, and then seek the same referral I think.

[steppemum]

just to add, I have 3 kids and only dd1 had this problem. It is NOT a parenting issue, it is to do with the child's development.

dd1 also never seemed that bothered by being wet, she just shrugged and changed, or, if no one noticed sat all day wet and came home wet.

[bunique]

Ha, I've told DD2 she'll be in nappies til she's 14!

[Lucked]

For the constipation you just need to look at her poos and see how frequently she is going and the size and consistency.

It took us a year to potty train mostly poo problems but now I realise we were lucky, this sounds so stressful. When my three year old was going through a bad stage I set a timer and gave no choice but to go to the toilet every 20mins all day everyday. It was tedious but possible. I then increased the time if there were no accidents by 10mins at a time.

[bunique]

Lucked - there is no pattern - sometimes they are something a rugby player would be proud of, sometimes much smaller... Not loose though which I know can be an indicator of an obstruction.

[bunique]

How was everyone's day today? I stopped counting at 4... Realised through close observation today that she only uses the toilet without prompting when she needs a poo - wees seem to create no urge in her whatsoever.

[MajesticWhine]

We had a dry day. I am really hopeful we have turned a corner, but I'm still a bit worried about DD going back to school, which is next week.
bunique - what is your strategy at the moment - are you prompting her when you think she needs to go or just leaving her to decide?

[bunique]

Current project is getting her to drink as much water as possible - we managed about 1.5l today but we're aiming for 2l as per the HV's advice. I've told her that I'm not bringing spare clothes out with us tomorrow and we'll have to come home if she's wet (not intended as a punishment but a natural consequences thing...) but to be honest the more I observe the more I think she just doesn't have the physical control yet. I'm going to let 2 weeks of school play out then request further input from HV/GP.

I'm stuck between reminding her to go, and leaving her to try and recognise the sensation. The ERIC website seems to suggest times toilet visits on the hour, then extending by 10 minutes once there's no accidents. There's so much conflicting advice it's hard to know what to do for the best.

[bunique]

Timed toilet visits*