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If Russia rigged Brexit - surely we'd have to vote again?

(34 Posts)
raisinsarenottheonlyfruit Sat 02-Dec-17 15:36:08

So the Trump-Russia scandal is unravelling before our eyes.

Flynn has plead guilty today to relatively minor charges because he's dished the dirt on his superiors. His superiors are only - Trump or the vice president (or both of them). This is going tits up for them.

Seth Abramson (American attorney) tweeted

"Putin's election interference, as Harding notes, was part of a years-long campaign to destroy the EU, NATO, and, yes, the United States. Complicity in that campaign is complicity in an attempt by Putin to reinstate the Cold War and demolish Western democracy. It's that big."

We're also learning that the extent of the Russian bots on Facebook and Twitter attempting to influence opinion on Brexit -
urging people to vote leave - was huge.

If Russia influenced the vote then it wasn't the will of the people - was it?

This sounds like a conspiracy theory but It's not - this is mainstream news! (Catch newsnight later to hear Seth Abramson's analysis of Trump or read his Twitter account here

At what point do we accept our political process was corrupted?

CiderwithBuda Sat 02-Dec-17 15:39:02

I have no idea but it's shocking. But I can't see there being another referendum unfortunately. Although I do feel there should be an investigation here.

GardenGeek Sat 02-Dec-17 15:39:11

To be fair though my facebook is never leave or far right etc. It is always momentum/ labour / corbyn.

Agustarella Sat 02-Dec-17 15:40:47

I don't think a few tweets (or even a lot of tweets) in the runup to the referendum made much difference, compared with decades of Europhobic disinformation from the right wing newspapers. But if 'Putin caused Brexit' provides a face-saving way for Leave voters to admit they were wrong, then bring it on!

MrsTerryPratchett Sat 02-Dec-17 15:44:35

If they had stolen ballot boxes or rugged machines to count differently; yes. But lying to people and saying stupid things on the side of buses isn't the same. It's just 'politics'. Unfortunately we no longer value critical thinking so people can't judge these tweets/posts.

raisinsarenottheonlyfruit Sat 02-Dec-17 15:48:18

Sorry I mean last night's Newsnight! Did anyone see it?

raisinsarenottheonlyfruit Sat 02-Dec-17 15:50:45

But lying to people and saying stupid things on the side of buses

But this isn't about our own politicians telling lies. This is about a foreign government trying to influence our political process, to destabilise our unions, for their own ends.

We can't just shrug and say "it was just a few tweets" - I expect we don't know the half of it!

Jenala Sat 02-Dec-17 16:03:49

Thanks for the Twitter thread link!

raisinsarenottheonlyfruit Sat 02-Dec-17 17:58:40

It's eye opening isn't it! (Understatement!)

InfiniteSheldon Sun 03-Dec-17 06:09:35

I thought it was only stupid old people who voted Leave do they use Twitter a lot then?

raisinsarenottheonlyfruit Sun 03-Dec-17 09:07:21

InfiniteSheldon what kind of comment is that?

Does it not concern you that Russia is trying to influence our political process?

AgnesSkinner Sun 03-Dec-17 12:04:23

Interesting article on how social media shaped the Leave campaign:

www.referendumanalysis.eu/eu-referendum-analysis-2016/section-7-social-media/impact-of-social-media-on-the-outcome-of-the-eu-referendum/

MrsTerryPratchett Sun 03-Dec-17 16:22:54

It's only important because the vote was so close. Had we used the two-thirds majority convention for major changes we wouldn't be here. Major constitutional change based on a strict majority is bloody stupid. You'd think the people organising this would have known that.

Kursk Sun 03-Dec-17 16:28:25

It doesn’t concern me that Russia influenced the vote. I am sure MI6 and the CIA rig elections all over the world. The only difference is that this time it happened to an election people cared about.

raisinsarenottheonlyfruit Sun 03-Dec-17 17:31:01

Major constitutional change based on a strict majority is bloody stupid. You'd think the people organising this would have known that.

I am at a loss as to what the people organising it thought they were doing.

It's quite funny (in a gallow humour way) to see the DUP calling "the Emporer has no clothes" at the Tories trying to say "don't worry about there not being a plan, we'll sort that out later". They're not having any of it.

raisinsarenottheonlyfruit Sun 03-Dec-17 17:31:41

But yes, MrsTerryPratchett I totally agree.

raisinsarenottheonlyfruit Sun 03-Dec-17 17:35:01

It doesn’t concern me that Russia influenced the vote.

Eh?

What are you saying exactly @Kursk?

Are you saying you don't care about democracy? If it's all an illusion, that's fine?
You're happy for Russia to deliberately destabilise Europe?
You don't care who wins in any election?

Do you vote?

GardenGeek Sun 03-Dec-17 21:04:57

What better way to destabilise democracy than to render every vote useless?

Its a worrying idea, but personally I see no evidence of it whatsoever in real life on social media. Secondly, even if it is true, then as above they have succeeded anyway.

Kursk Sun 03-Dec-17 22:33:55

I did vote before I left the country. I am saying that I don’t think voting means anything, as democracy in Europe is an illusion. That’s on one hand.

On the other hand we have destabilized democracy on other countries for the gain of the UK. So we cannot really complain when we taste our own medicine.

Postagestamppat Tue 05-Dec-17 05:50:55

There was a very good - if convoluted - article in the guardian about data mining and Brexit and the US election. Apparently the leave side paid millions to tech companies with Russian links:

www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/may/07/the-great-british-brexit-robbery-hijacked-democracy

Anyway I don't believe that we can have a true democracy in the UK because the press is so baised.

cdtaylornats Wed 06-Dec-17 08:10:37

Millions of computers in the UK run Russian anti-virus software.

You know who else uses data mining - supermarkets.

Childrenofthestones Wed 06-Dec-17 16:36:04

OP - "So the Trump-Russia scandal is unravelling before our eyes"

Meanwhile
NEW YORK — Suspended ABC News reporter Brian Ross will no longer cover stories involving President Donald Trump following his erroneous report last Friday on former national security adviser Michael Flynn.
www.usatoday.com/story/money/media/2017/12/05/abc-says-ross-no-longer-cover-stories-involving-trump/923132001/

MephistophelesApprentice Wed 06-Dec-17 16:41:32

To be honest, it just proves how fundamentally weak democracy is in an age of hyper-propaganda and post-modernism.

AndhowcouldIeverrefuse Wed 06-Dec-17 16:46:54

Agree that the bias on the UK press is remarkable. What is middle ground in the UK (Daily Mail) would be right or far right in many democracies.

I remember reading on here that the Leave campaign would be studied in years to come. There was dodgy stuff going on and it was obvious to everyone who used the Internet and social media. On MN every referendum thread would be taken over by a few posters spouting leave slogans completely ignoring other posters until threads were abandoned. I saw the most barefaced lies on my Facebook feed. The press was in full frenzy.

I must admit that I thought it would be a good few years before all this would be studied and investigated. It's interesting that the whole financing of the leave campaign is unravelling now. I don't think it will lead to another referendum though. People are arrogant and hate to admit they were duped / wrong.

InfiniteSheldon Fri 08-Dec-17 14:22:36

I think the press coverage was positively Orwellian in its Remain bias it was all Project Fear nonsense and Obama waving his willy.

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