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WWYD if you were a Lib Dem supporter in this seat

(54 Posts)
randomposterme Thu 18-May-17 13:25:33

I'm in the only seat in Scotland which has a Tory MP. I voted 'No' in the indyref and 'remain' in Brexit. I am really very tired of the SNP dogged obsession with independence. But a hard Brexit is now my top concern and fear.

To topple the Tory, I would need to vote SNP. There is no doubt my vote would be hijacked as tacit support for independence, when actually it would be a vote to topple a Tory seat.

I feel a bit like some Americans said they felt when presented with two unpalatable choices (in their opinion). I do think that those who couldn't stomach Clinton, and opted for Jill Stein or not voting at all, helped get Trump into power. In the same way, I can't stomach either SNP or Tory, but a Tory candidate supporting hard Brexit would be the 'Trump' result for me.

I presented this logic to DH who until this point had been adamant he'd vote Lib Dem this time, and his response was 'Oh god you're right'. We're now thinking we may have to vote SNP confused. We're rationalising we could still vote NO in indy2 if we still felt that way when it came - which it will.

But today I woke up wishing I had other choices.

WWYD?

PigletWasPoohsFriend Thu 18-May-17 13:29:46

Personally I would probably spoil my ballot paper

MaroonPencil Thu 18-May-17 13:35:49

I don't know. I'm voting Lib Dem in this election despite being a Labour voter, as this constituency wasn't even Labour in 1997 so I highly doubt Labour has a chance here, whereas we have been Lib Dem for quite a few years before the Tories won the seat last time. But then I am not particularly anti Lib Dem so it's not that hard a decision.

I suppose you just have to think what would you hate most - a Tory MP or an SNP MP with associated independence issues, and vote for the other one. That's the kind of thinking we are reduced to in this first past the post system.

squishysquirmy Thu 18-May-17 14:00:59

I'm in a similar position to you - I live in a "safe" SNP seat (although I don't think it is that safe), with an SNP MP that I like. However, I voted No in the last indy referendum. I want to vote Labour, except that I am worried that my area could potentially go blue - I would feel awful if my vote for Labour helped that happen. I keep swinging between SNP and Labour, still have not made up my mind. If a second referendum was off the table, I would definitely vote SNP in June (but probably not in the Holyrood elections). If I knew for sure that the Conservatives couldn't win here, I would vote Labour.

I'm going to spend some more time looking at the candidates themselves in more detail to help me decide!

chipsandpeas Thu 18-May-17 14:19:49

just vote snp, as you say you can still vote no in Indyref2

JamieXeed74 Thu 18-May-17 14:41:58

Voting SNP will get you a second referendum which could break up the UK but it won't change Brexit. Voting Conservative wont change Brexit but it could stop a second referendum which might break up the UK.

So the only way could get some of what you want it to vote to the Tory.

I'm similarly conflicted. My area is one of the tightest Labour/Conservative margins.
If I vote LibDem then I know my vote is 'wasted', but I really want to register my vote for them.
It's more sensible to vote LibDem than spoil a ballot paper, but I don't know if I should grit my teeth and vote labour instead.

SparklyUnicornPoo Thu 18-May-17 15:25:15

I think I would go SNP because you can vote no to independence where as you can't on brexit.

PigletWasPoohsFriend Thu 18-May-17 15:46:30

It's more sensible to vote LibDem than spoil a ballot paper, but I don't know if I should grit my teeth and vote labour instead.

If you want to vote LibDem then do.

The problem in voting for parties when you don't want to is that it still goes to their vote share even if the don't win.

In Labours case Corbyn and his time will use the vote share arguement to stay on after the election.

squishysquirmy Thu 18-May-17 15:59:20

"So the only way could get some of what you want it to vote to the Tory."

Nah. Nothing can stop Brexit now, but voting Tory is not a way to get "some of what you want", unless what you want is a huge Conservative majority. I know that many want exactly this, but going by what the OP has said, she doesn't!
It would make more sense if we were talking about the Holyrood elections, where a Tory MSP would help strengthen the opposition against the SNP, but we're not.

There are some very big, far reaching decisions to be made about the future of the UK. Democracy works best when there is an effective opposition, and the opposition cannot achieve much if there are hardly any opposition MPs, no matter who the leader is.
You might want to see the Conservatives win 450 or more seats, Jamie, but many of us don't and its not just about Brexit and Independence.

PigletWasPoohsFriend Thu 18-May-17 16:06:51

There are some very big, far reaching decisions to be made about the future of the UK. Democracy works best when there is an effective opposition, and the opposition cannot achieve much if there are hardly any opposition MPs, no matter who the leader is.

I agree. However unless Labour do even worse than predicted, go to under 50 seats which won't happen then the SNP will never be the official opposition no matter how much they would like to be.

randomposterme Thu 18-May-17 16:13:05

Voting SNP will get you a second referendum which could break up the UK but it won't change Brexit.

I think we're getting a second referendum on independence irrespective of this result. I think anyone who thinks voting Tory will stop that doesn't really understand the complexity of it all in Scotland. Sturgeon has committed herself. Her supporters will demand it. Her party would be damaged if she didn't follow through. IMO. Theresa May playing hardball on it will be damaging in the long run and give the SNP more ammo to use against Westminster. Even I wince at her 'lines' on granting a second indyref, and I don't want one.

My leaflet from Mundell (Tory) was ALL about independence. Not a single word about Brexit, EU citizens rights, the single market or any if the Brexit related issues weighing on my mind. Like Brexit isn't happening in Scotland. I was so angry I scrawled all over it and sent it back to him.

Logically I think I have to vote SNP but I really don't want to. Logically, an SNP MP in Westminster is another pro-Eu voice which might affect the type of Brexit we get.

I would NEVER vote SNP for Holyrood elections.

I would love to see the Lib Dems do better, but every election in recent years has felt too important to risk/waste my vote. So when would they ever do better if we all think like this?

If I was going to spoil my ballot I'd vote Lib Dem.

randomposterme Thu 18-May-17 16:17:46

squishy I have voted Tory once in my life and it was for Holyrood. I 'swapped' my vote with a friend who voted labour in his constituency (he's a Tory supporter). But we both wanted opposition to the SNP so it was a tactical vote. Still, I felt like crying when I made my cross.

squishysquirmy Thu 18-May-17 16:25:50

Piglet, I know that voting SNP will not increase the size of the official opposition in Westminster, but as randomposterme says, at least an SNP MP will be another bum on the opposition benches - if I was in the OP's position, I would be as conflicted as she is over who to vote for but I know it wouldn't be Conservative, which is what another poster suggested!

randomposterme: Everything in your last post is my experience too. Even the Conservative leaflets for the local election were all about independence, with hardly any mention of local issues.

If the Lib Dems had any chance in my area, I would vote for them. But in 2015, the SNP came first, then Labour, then (not that far behind Labour) the Conservatives. I think that this time around the Conservative's will overtake Labour, and maybe even beat the SNP. Its the latter scenario that is making me consider voting SNP, just in case.

Piffpaffpoff Thu 18-May-17 16:27:34

It's awful isn't it. There's no-one that I actually want to vote for, so my vote is going to the least worst option, which is crap. I really can't bring myself to vote snp as I feel every vote they get vindicates their relentless drive towards another referendum, but I take the point that I can vote no at that (again). Aaarrgh!

squishysquirmy Thu 18-May-17 16:28:32

Cross post!

randomposterme Thu 18-May-17 16:43:36

There is no way I'm voting Tory. Unlikely I ever will again. I will never forgive them for Brexit.

piff SNP will definitely use our votes to bolster claims about support for independence. However they themselves have said this isn't an independence issue election (not that that will stop them making a claim later that it was - they are that duplicitous).

Real support for independence will be measured in polls and on indyref polling day.

There must be LOADS of people in our situation, like squishy too. . I.e. Facing a Tory revival who are remainers who opposed independence having to consider voting SNP to stop a hard Brexit.

I don't believe the Tory revival here is support for Tory values. I think Ruth Davidson is personable , but ultimately Tory votes are actually anti-Indy. If Labour was stronger then those votes would go to Labour.

CuddleAttack Thu 18-May-17 16:43:38

Similar position- Labour supporter in a Scottish seat that is a two horse race between SNP and Tories.

I'm going to take a hit and vote SNP. My logic is this.

1. My vote may well be interpreted as support for Indyref2. But I will get a vote in that referendum, if it comes about. I won't get consulted again on Brexit if a Tory landslide is taken as support for hard Brexit/no deal. Or about cuts/austerity etc. So at least voting this way I will get a chance to express a further preference.

That for me is the killer argument, and the following two just sweeten the bitter pill a little.

2. I have met both the local Tory candidate. Shudder. Obviously on the make, quick smart, and doesn't give a shiny shit about anyone but himself. I have also met local SNP MP and he's, well, alright. Decent enough bloke. Bothers to do stuff locally, proper local roots, helps constituents etc. So he is going to be the better MP, party politics aside.

3. I find Ruth Davidson absolutely insufferable.

randomposterme Thu 18-May-17 16:45:42

Yup, that's it. I can't get away from it. I think it's going to have to be SNP for me too for all the same reasons.

wtffgs Thu 18-May-17 17:07:09

Voting Conservative wont change Brexit but it could stop a second referendum which might break up the UK.

hmm You think the stories, who got us into this Brexit mess are the ones to keep the union together? <hollow laugh>

wtffgs Thu 18-May-17 17:08:15

FFS! Tories - though they do tell a lot of tall stories!

Piffpaffpoff Thu 18-May-17 20:46:41

We've switched back and forth between SNP and labour the last few times and a few weeks back I would have said the Tories had no chance here (central Scotland labour heartland, ex-mining community) but then they got loads of Councillors. The lab candidate is ok and I'll go for her if she looks like she has a shot, I just can't bring myself at the moment to think about the SNP

trixymalixy Fri 19-May-17 11:13:37

I am in a similar position. I disagree that another indyref is a fine deal though.

Brexit is happening, the tories are going to get a landslide. However if we can send a clear message to sturgeon that we don't want another referendum then she'll put it off as if she loses a second one its game over for her.

If it can be held off until after the next Holyrood elections and there's a pro union majority in Holyrood, which I think there will be, then it ain't happening.

trixymalixy Fri 19-May-17 11:14:22

*fine=done

Jarstastic Fri 19-May-17 20:25:30

I would vote LibDem.

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