Owen Smith or Jeremy Corbyn

[TwoLeftSocks]

Can anyone direct me to some fairly straightforward sources of information about the two Labour leadership candidates please, I feel I need to be more informed than I currently am.

For balance, could that include positives and negatives for both.

[Finola1step]

Watching with interest. Last night's debate left me feeling quite underwhelmed.

[QueenLaBeefah]

They're both crap. Can't imagine voting for either.

[daisymai08]

Dan Jarvis is your man in the long run....

[PalacePalacePalace]

It is underwhelming and I'm not sure how either of them are going to be able to stabilise and provide unity for the party (whichever side you are on).

For me, the only choice is Owen Smith. Corbyn and his team seem to completely lack any will or drive to deliver a labour government and to appeal to a wider cross section of society.

The labour party must be more than a protest movement.

[TwoLeftSocks]

Feeling underwhelmed too and haven't a clue what I'd do if I had to vote today.

[TwoLeftSocks]

DH knew Dan Jarvis years ago and has alot of respect for him. Will watch this space for him in future.

[Finola1step]

I didn't vote for JC last time as I didn't think he could build an effective shadow government. The core responsibility for Labour right now is to provide strong opposition. But instead, it continues to fight amongst itself, giving free rein to the Tories.

Owen Smith isn't the right person for the job but right now, he seems to be the one who understands the need to work towards getting back into government.

You can talk all you like about values, vision and policies but they are damn blood useless if you have no hope of winning the next GE.

But as I said unthread, underwhelmed.

[daisymai08]

Ooh that's interesting I really think he's the next one - watching the Andrew Marr show it seems that this race might be an intermediate to overthrow JC hopefully we'll see DJ next :)

[RortyCrankle]

As a Conservative voter I would have to say that both are insignificant and neither has a hope in hell of winning the 2020 GE which is extremely fortunate for the Conservatives

[TwoLeftSocks]

Think you might be right there Rorty.

I think there are a few more hustings about the country over the next few weeks so will have to see what comes of them.

[cdtaylornats]

Rorty as a Conservative myself I don't think it's a good thing. 2020 will be a walkover but with no effective opposition it's just bad for democracy and in the long run by 2025 complacency will have got a grip of the Tories.

The SNP have had free rein in Scotland and they are utterly fucking up.

Police, the NHS, education are all being screwed. You need an effective opposition just to occasionally put forward sensible alternatives.

[BungoWomble]

Think about the fact that Jeremy Corbyn has managed to get those alternatives mentioned by cdtaylornats back on the agenda, at all. Yes, they are derided by the media and political establishment. But the fact that they are there at all, the fact that Owen Smith has to pay lip service, even Theresa May has to talk that talk, is entirely due to Jeremy Corbyn.

Despite the media hostility, and the hostility of the neoliberalist elements in his own party - or even sometimes because of it - there is a sniff of a possibility of real change. Because of Corbyn. He is no messiah, merely a messenger, but he is there and delivering.

What will Smith actually deliver? More lip service and hypocritcal, back biting, self serving lies from what I've seen so far.

The question is more than can we win elections. Any fool can win elections by smiling nicely, lying through their teeth and appealing to voters' baser instincts. Cameron and Johnson have proved that. The question is what future do we want for our selves, our children and our country. If that means Labour needs to stay as a real opposition, providing real alternatives, then that is what we need not an election winning future-traitor.

[cdtaylornats]

Corbyn said yesterday that he wouldn't immediately go to the aid of a NATO country attacked by Russia. That alone is enough to put him beyond the pale.

[BungoWomble]

Did he? where?

Have to say, there is pacifism, and there is standing there almost asking to be murdered, wish he'd learn the difference. I still don't see Smith as an alternative though.

[cdtaylornats]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37125824

Corbyn alienating Britains allies

[SoloD]

Worse than that, he has said nothing about Russian Bombing civilians in Syria* (compared to constantly denouncing Israel). And actually legitimized the Russian invasion of Ukraine & Georgia (so much for his anti war stance).

I wonder sometimes if he is a stooge of Putin's.






*It's so bad that Médecins Sans Frontières, stopping giving the locations of it's hospitals as it was less risk to have them hit be accident than actually targeted by the Russian.
www.theguardian.com/world/2016/feb/18/msf-will-not-share-syria-gps-locations-after-deliberate-attacks

[BungoWomble]

Well to be fair, on nato, that link did not give much detail. I can understand a delay to figure out what's happening and get diplomacy working first with Russia. Foreign affairs like that are not suited to media soundbite presentation. Diplomacy with Russia has always been a delicate affair and no one wants us to end up in MAD scenarios, do they. The hotline between USs and USSRs presidential offices was an essential in the Cold War.

On bombs in Syria, no one is talking much about the damage from US and UK bombs either are they. I didn't and don't support more bombing in Syria, not while we all know damn well we are indirectly helping to finance the situation there via Saudi Arabia, and that has not been stopped. Corbyn has spoken about that, as have others. Another delicate situation not really suited to our totally inadequate modern media.

[BungoWomble]

I'm not very knowledgeable about Ukraine (insofar as I am anywhere) and not at all about Georgia. War does have to be a last resort, of course it does. We need to be ready to defend ourselves, but not to start WW3.

[megletthesecond]

Not inspired by either of them. It's frankly depressing.

[EnthusiasmDisturbed]

I would like to find Smith more inspiring than I do but he is the only alternative and will take the party further than Corbyn, we might then at least be able to form a credible opposition

There may not be much talk about Russia's involvement in Syria but when has that kept Corbyn quiet before

[claig]

"Labour leadership contest: Owen Smith’s campaign left reeling after suggestion of peace talks with Isis

Jeremy Corbyn’s camp called the comments ‘hasty and ill-considered’

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-leadership-contest-owen-smith-s-campaign-left-reeling-after-suggestion-of-peace-talks-with-a7196086.html

As Paul Mason tweeted, can you imagine the media uproar if Corbyn had said such a stupid thing?

[RortyCrankle]

cdtaylornats
Rorty as a Conservative myself I don't think it's a good thing. 2020 will be a walkover but with no effective opposition it's just bad for democracy and in the long run by 2025 complacency will have got a grip of the Tories.

I actually agree, an effective opposition keeps a government on its toes and complacency can be a death knell. In no shape or form can Labour be considered to be effective as opposition or anything at the moment.