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I have a quick question for Labour voters, please.

(252 Posts)
alwayshungry100 Thu 07-May-15 04:23:30

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

UnoPan Thu 07-May-15 05:07:15

Briefly, this country has masses of wealth! We are the 6th richest nation on the planet. Who on earth told you we have no money?

Besides that, increasing living standards means an increase in the tax take that can be spent properly on public services.

The very worst thing to do is to maintain a low wage economy that produces a low tax take. Which is what Tories have been doing, to the benefit of the very few. We have far more millionaires than we did in 2010, as well as far more children living in poverty. You'd think it was deliberate. OR evidence of incompetence..

rootypig Thu 07-May-15 05:16:28

For god's sake. Hook line and sinker. I'm starting to think you should have to be able to explain what fiat money is to earn your vote.

read this: www.theguardian.com/business/ng-interactive/2015/apr/29/the-austerity-delusion

No seriously, really read it.

Jackieharris Thu 07-May-15 05:41:20

This country has no money. We can't afford to borrow any more, and we need to reign in our spending.

I'm not a labour voter but that ^^ is a load of bollocks and I speak as someone who is experienced in finance and studied economics at a RG university.

VashtaNerada Thu 07-May-15 06:01:16

Great responses on this thread! I'm no economist but if I was PM I'd be interested in how I could increase immigration too, seeing as they contribute more to the economy than take out.

EhricLovesTheBhrothers Thu 07-May-15 06:15:54

This country has money and has the means to borrow money at a decent rate because we have a healthy economy. The deficit is normal and an expected part of a country's financial system. Economic recovery does not mean spending less it means spending more but people can't understand that national economies are not like household budgets.

Austerity is an ideologically driven policy which has been hung in the hook of the global recession. The Tories economic policies have failed to reduce the deficit or boost the economy because they were never going to!
I'm no economist but even I can understand this basic fact. Read the article posted above - it's very digestible.

alwayshungry100 Thu 07-May-15 06:28:54

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

alwayshungry100 Thu 07-May-15 06:30:11

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ragged Thu 07-May-15 06:34:52

We're spending huge amounts of money servicing the national debt, I'd really like to see that national debt reduced not increased, and without having to raise inflation sharply. Rather have the pain now than later. Will read the article later...

alwayshungry100 Thu 07-May-15 06:38:42

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

EhricLovesTheBhrothers Thu 07-May-15 06:40:24

Well, isn't the whole point of austerity because Labour were hugely overspending/borrowing more than we could afford?

No! The point of austerity is to shrink the state and outsource public services such as child protection teams and criminal justice to private companies. The conservative agenda is to reduce the state and push as much as they can into the hands of profit chasing enterprises. They used the recession as a hook to hang this on but austerity does not work as a means to increase productivity and boost the economy.
The recession was a global hit and was entirely down to banking failures. Labour foolishly rode the wave and then got dragged down when it crashed but of course they did not cause the global recession.

Please, you sound like a questioning and interested person, do some reading before you vote!

IndosaSamosa Thu 07-May-15 06:48:21

Austerity is an ideological position, not an economic fact.

Here's an American perspective

rootypig Thu 07-May-15 06:49:54

Apologies OP. Your first post read to me as rather aggressive. And it's so depressingly wide of the mark that I can't help but bash my head off the wall.

Please do read the article. Paul Krugman is a well respected - in fact Nobel prize winning economist. It is a well set out and comprehensive lay person's explanation.

Primaryteach87 Thu 07-May-15 06:51:25

Please please read this benjaminstudebaker.com/2015/05/02/britain-for-the-love-of-god-please-stop-david-cameron/

I'm afraid you're buying into (really pervasive) Tory spin

twofingerstoGideon Thu 07-May-15 06:54:42

OP, why don't you question how the Tories are going to 'magic up' the money to support the NHS? George Osborne couldn't answer that question when he was asked by Andrew Marr. Why don't you ask how the Tories are going to fund another giveaway of social housing? When they were asked on Radio 4 Today programme how they'd pay for that, they had no answer whatsoever.
I'd suggest a good look behind those Tory soundbites and their constant references to 'the note'.

merrymouse Thu 07-May-15 07:01:57

Leaving aside the economic arguments for government spending, it is quite clear that many of the people in this country have loads of money. They may not want to spend it on taxes, but that is an ideological view point and has nothing to do with 'austerity'.

Really, neither party is arguing that you can improve the economy by not spending money. The question is who should spend the money and how can wealth be redistributed so that everybody benefits. The tories argue that wealth can be redistributed by the trickle down effect. However, looking at food banks and the way the housing crisis has worsened over the last 5 years, there is no evidence of any trickle down. A child growing up in poverty is less likely to become a child that pays taxes. You can cut as much as you like, but in the long term, poor people cost money.

The panicky bribes of free houses and cuts to IHT really don't inspire confidence. On the other hand, I suppose for a history graduate with no real economic qualifications, you have to give George full marks for effort! I think he might have maths A-level?

ElectraCute Thu 07-May-15 07:05:08

OP, the note was pretty stupid, but it was also a joke - it's traditional for the outgoing govt to do something/leave something for the incomers (just like the outgoing Bush administration removed all the Ws from White House computer keyboards, apparently). It was a really shit joke, and they should've known better than to give Cameron something he could make political capital out of, but it was, nevertheless, a joke.

The fact that Cameron has justified his entire economic policy on the basis of it should tell you more about him than about Labour.

Please do read the austerity article. Austerity is the worst, most pernicious lie the British public has ever been fed. We are not a bankrupt country. We have a LOT of money - and even if we didn't, austerity would not be the way to solve that. As pp have said, the Tories have hung what is essentially an ideological position on the hook of a 'broken economy' in order to justify the swingeing cuts and misery they have imposed on so many. That they always intended to imposed on many, no matter what the actual state of the economy.

Redlocks28 Thu 07-May-15 07:10:35

This country has no money. We can't afford to borrow any more, and we need to reign in our spending.That is fact.

No. The Tories have told you it's fact and you have accepted it blindly.

Please do a bit of research into actual facts before you vote.

chosenone Thu 07-May-15 07:11:56

Even before i read the austerity delusion it was clear to me that there are many many people in this country with wealth. If the cuts are so neccesary then why is tax evasion ignored ? The NHS is being set up to fail at the moment so they can outsource/ privatise it. Education is being similarly decimated with 'free schools' and Academies offering a 2nd rate education.
If we all had to pay a little more tax then so what ? Its called sharing! And that aligns with my personal ideology.

baies1 Thu 07-May-15 07:12:50

It makes me so confused and angry that people have believed labour were at fault for the global economic crash. In fact I think most of the world copied our bail out plans. It makes mesad that the Tories and their mates at the papers have regurgitated this bollocks.

Great thread responses and I hope they're informative op! Read, and then vote smile

merrymouse Thu 07-May-15 07:15:09

Rather have the pain now than later.

Except there is no end point to 'austerity'. There is no point where we will have 'arrived' and the Conservatives will start spending more on education, health and public services.

alwayshungry100 Thu 07-May-15 07:17:46

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

rootypig Thu 07-May-15 07:20:42

"Think for a moment about the market for government debt as if it were an isolated market. The supply of that debt is rising because of larger budget deficits, but the demand for debt is also increasing because financial institutions have more funds to invest since the private sector is saving more, which is the reason we have a recession in the first place."

This point about private savings is absolutely essential.

From this article, which covers much of the same ground as Krugman's but also quantitative easing, a bit more about the confidence fairy hmm and the media's utter wrongheadedness. www.lrb.co.uk/v37/n04/simon-wren-lewis/the-austerity-con

rootypig Thu 07-May-15 07:21:53

Read, read, OP! if you do it fast enough there'll be a good 15 hours of voting left for you to march about and convert others grin

ElectraCute Thu 07-May-15 07:21:59

The big Guardian article is really bloody big, and takes a while grin

The Studebaker one is really clear imo.

One thing that seriously pisses me off about Labour is that they simply haven't worked hard enough to counter all this misinformation about the economy. They have let the Tories ride with this story for 5 years and many people, quite understandably, have swallowed it.

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