Gove vs Harman

[niceguy2]

Interesting debate on Newsnight. For once I think Gove was effective and showed Harman (again) to be the wishy washy PC idiot she is.

How can she try to defend the rioting as protests against EMA & tuition fees when what the looters are doing is robbing TV's and clothes? If they were robbing Waterstones and taking reference books....maybe.

Link for those who missed it

[Tortington]

piss poor argument, do you really think that those who had further education as an option were likely rioters?

[mrsruffallo]

Agreed with Michael Gove here. I seem to agree with him a lot, and I never thought I would admit that about a tory.
HH came across badly, especially when he pointed out that these teens had grown up under a labour government. It is so much bigger than party politics.

[twinklypearls]

Harriet Harman repeatedly said that she condemned the rioting. She was not defending it but saying that certain Tory decisions were a contributing factor to the environment in which the riots started.

Gove was , I agree, more effective than he is often given credit for. He was however twisting her words and I am surprised that she managed to keep her temper.

[twinklypearls]

I agree ruffallo that Gove made a good pint that many of the rioting kids had grown up under a labour government. The problems are bigger than party politics.

I think whilst we should condemn the actions of the rioters, we should all be asking ourselves what we can do to prevent this underclass growing. As a teacher I have been doing a lot of thinking.

[claig]

Good to see that people are beginning to see how eminently sensible Gove is and always was. I think we are witnessing a sea change and the public are realising how unsensible progressives like Harman are in comparison to sensible people like Gove.

It shows that even in the bleakest hour, hope and good sense never die.

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

"do you really think that those who had further education as an option were likely rioters?"

It's being reported that, among the first people charged with looting and sent to Magistrates Court, there were a graphic designer, army recruit, college students & a graduate. Seems like stupidity & criminality is not confined to the uneducated.

[niceguy2]

HH came across badly, especially when he pointed out that these teens had grown up under a labour government. It is so much bigger than party politics.

Exactly. I would argue the policies of the last thirteen years have had much of an impact on these youths than the last year under the coalition. I doubt these feral youths were model citizens until the Tories cut EMA/whatever and they thought "Oooh, i have no choice now but to rob Currys and help myself to a new TV"

It's just stupid to suggest otherwise and at this moment I expect all politician's to be working TOGETHER to restore law & order. Making political hay is something they should put aside right now and do at a later date.

Poor show Harperson...poor show.

[LegoStuckinMyhoover]

"For once I think Gove was effective and showed Harman (again) to be the wishy washy PC idiot she is."

I just watched the clip and this is what I think of it, since you asked!

I think that Gove came across as defensive, shouty [he began to shout/raise his tone and speak quickly before she did], attacking at a personal level and aggressive. He did not offer any reasoned talk/debate/discussion about the situation. What he did say, sounded hollow and shallow and as if he had never picked up a single history or sociology book or research paper in his life. He was not listening to her at all and actually, in my opinion, didn't even state his own opinion because all he was doing was trying to belittle her.

Harriet Harman, came across as a sound minded, coherant, reasoned person who was not excusing the riots. She was attempting to scratch the surface as to why the riots happened/happening, but as she kept saying, that was for a later date whilst peace is restored, first and foremost.

Sorry, but I think he looked pretty silly.

[jackstarb]

Thanks for the link niceguy.

It was unwise of Hariet Harman to introduce the tuition fee increase and lost EMA as possible causes of the riots. It left her very open to Gove.

I actually agree with her that the causes are complex and the EMA withdrawal (though not so much the tuition fee increase) might create future social unrest and crime. But unfortunately she stamped all over her own argument.

I also think it's unfair to blame Labour. They certainly recognised the importance of investing in the young. The last 13 years saw an unprecedented increase in public spending much of it on young people (education spending nearly doubled, Surestart, youth centres, EMA......).

With hindsight too much of this money was unwisely spent (£20m PFI schools, ineffective teaching assistants, Surestart and EMA for the middle-classes..)

Now we have to learn from past mistakes and adapt policies to suit the current austerity. The level of tax revenue that paid for Labour's policies has gone (possibly for good). And surely by now, everyone can see why excessive borrowing is nolonger an option?

[niceguy2]

Hi Lego. I certainly don't mind you stating your opinion. Afterall, it's just as valid as mine. And it's interesting how two people can watch the same clip and come away with complete opposite opinions.

I understand she was trying to state why she thought the riots happened but I think on reasons I think are flawed and frankly incorrect. Firstly the EMA & tuition fee policies haven't been implemented yet. OK, perhaps maybe you could argue that it damaged young people's self esteem or something.

But then look at the people charged so far. The first person convicted was a 31yr old classroom assistant. Amongst those arrested, there has been a postman, a charity worker, a 35yr old father. None of which are really people you'd expect to get EMA or affected by tuition fees. The more likely explanation in my opinion is that we've created a society which no longer respects authority. We've raised a generation of people who are selfish beyond belief and live for the moment. Concepts like saving for something is alien. They claim they want jobs but lack both the qualifications and more importantly the attitude needed to hold down a job. Whilst all too often having unrealistic expectations about what job they can do.

Let me ask a very simple question. Does anyone honestly believe the riots & looting over the last few days would NOT have occurred either under a Labour government or if EMA/tuition fees were not cut.

[aquashiv]

HH came across as having far more of an understanding of the real day to day issues her constituents face. Far more credible than Gove. He lost his cool several times. Instead of dealing with the questions he took a very defensive ?how very dare you stance', without anything to substantiate what he was saying.

He tried to mis quote her and I thought she stood up to him calmly.

"They will be brought to task" - How exactly? How much is this going to cost us the tax payer? So a day in prison is going to stop them really?

HH is right this is more complex than a bunch of mindless thugs out on the rob but they wont listen they wont even try to understand they never do.

The duplicity of the Torys is laughable. Gove himself tried to decieve us all by claiming for a house he didnt live in, as well as for all manner of bling. He only paid it back because he was caught. The Tories are the greediest seediest bastards of the lot of them and they wonder why it filters down to the masses.

[niceguy2]

Let's be fair, the Tories were not the only party who milked the expenses system. Frankly they were practically all at it.

[ttosca]

Let's be fair, the Tories were not the only party who milked the expenses system. Frankly they were practically all at it.

These are the people you want your kids to respect, niceguy?

[niceguy2]

In principle yes I do. If it turns out they've done something to lose that respect (say expenses scandal) then they can vote them out.

[ttosca]

lol - you just said 'Frankly they were practically all at it'.

So who do you vote for if they were practically all it, also remembering that you only get one vote for your local MP.

[ttosca]

In principle yes I do. If it turns out they've done something to lose that respect (say expenses scandal) then they can vote them out.

Also, nevermind voting them out or not. So you agree that respect must be earned, rather than assumed. I'm glad.

So, given the institutional corruption we witness from people in authority and influence: police, politicians, media - why should we 'in principle' respect them?

[CateOfCateHall]

I thought Gove came over as quite bullying, red faced, protesting too much about the possible effects of his govt.s policies and didn't address Harman's points properly. What a turn off.

[aquashiv]

www.guardian.co.uk/politics/wintour-and-watt/2011/aug/10/michaelgove-harrietharman

[aquashiv]

If she was talking such rubbish as a PC idiot?! His reaction was bizarre. Make your up your own minds folks.

[aliceliddell]

Pleased to see somebody's called her 'Harperson' already. (Bingo cards are available at the desk.) I guess many Gove fans will attribute riots to poor parenting. By parents raised under the Thatcherite ethos 'no such thing as society' 'greed is good'. Reap what you sow.

[aquashiv]

Nice guy do tell how these scum can be dealt with? What retribution are you talking about? As we know the prisons are full? Prison doesnt work its a breeding ground for future crime and for many its a safe place to be - hardly a 'punishment'. The police can hardly cope as it is let alone after all the cuts.

I won't even go down the route of why some parts of society might be feeling angry as you are clearly from the lock em up and shoot em brigade. :0

[ttosca]

No response to my recent question, niceguy?

So who do you vote for if they were practically all it, also remembering that you only get one vote for your local MP.

[sakura]

THanks for that link OP. I thought her final sentence was very telling:

"It was my constituency that was hit by this, not yours"

If anyone knows how to deal with this, it's Harman.

[aquashiv]

Personally his reaction was that of a guilty man;

Mr Gove, 41, whose constituency includes Chobham, Camberley and Frimley, was reported to have claimed more than £20,000 from the public purse for two separate homes, with individual items including a Manchu cabinet, a pair of elephant lamps and a Kenwood toaster....

YOu are right though wasnt just the Tories but they were the worst offenders.

They think they are above the law and they thought they couuld get away with it. Just like the vile toe rags we saw running the streets and stealing - there is not much between them the same sense of entitlement based on greed.

[jackstarb]

""It was my constituency that was hit by this, not yours"

That's the difficulty for Harman. Her constituents were the victims and the rioters. And her and her party in power for most of the lives of many of them.

Attempting to pass the blame to the Coalition was unhelpful & Gove was right to call her up on it.