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It's back, it's mean, and it's talking about HEAVEN - and having a beer with Custardo and Boco

(74 Posts)
justaboutindisguise Thu 05-Feb-09 13:58:18

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justaboutindisguise Thu 05-Feb-09 13:59:17

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Thought provoking as always. Never posted on one of your threads before, but have lurked, so here goes.

I think "heaven" as a concept, as a place, as a reality, is one of the things that makes believing so difficult. A place that fulfills all desire? An abstract dimension of contentment and happiness? A place of enforced perfection?

I've always found the traditional Sunday School version of Heaven quite unsatisfactory as a concept. What if I want to drink and smoke (without fear of death grin) and sin? Then my desires would never ever be fulfilled - not in life (when they are frowned upon, dangerous or a sign of maladjustment and must be repressed) or in Heaven, where things are good and pure and, well, heavenly.

I suppose my idea of heaven is a place without desire - but then without desire what is there to aspire to?

It just seems to go against human nature to be satisfied. Some of the most exceptional examples of humanity are demonstrated in times of stress and pain and striving for more.

But I like your non-judgemental heaven. I do like that.

justaboutindisguise Thu 05-Feb-09 14:20:35

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ForeverOptimistic Thu 05-Feb-09 14:20:36

I have also never posted on one of your threads before so please be gentle with me. grin

Until fairly recently I was a non-believer, I wanted to believe but I just didn't and the idea of "heaven" seemed like a fairytale to me. Various things have since happened recently and heaven is now very real to me, in fact it seems as real to me as Mongolia, somewhere I have never been but intend to visit one day.

I can't really explain my vision of heaven, although I dream of it on a regular basis. It is similar to here but we have knowledge and understanding, there are no unanswered questions which means that we can be free and at peace with ourselves and others.

justaboutindisguise Thu 05-Feb-09 14:24:49

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It should have a good story, but sadly it is just a quote from The Mighty Boosh.

I think I might go and make up a story for it though grin

justaboutindisguise Thu 05-Feb-09 14:38:51

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ahundredtimes Thu 05-Feb-09 14:39:20

I don't understand your reflection, sorry.

You seem to be saying, or reflecting, on the idea of what heaven is - either in the afterlife or on earth, in the ordinary. You say it is out of reach, tantalizing - a pair of boots, but then again perhaps it is the after life, a place without judgment but with beer.

I don't understand what you are reflecting on. It doesn't make sense. It's nothing, it's everything, it's there, it's here; and don't be judgmental btw either, just incase it is there and there's like a list or something.

Sorry, I don't understand what discussion this is supposed to provoke. What is heaven? What is your heaven? What is my heaven? Is heaven on earth? Or is heaven in heaven? Heavens above it's all nonsense, it's my nonsense, my dreams, MY heaven, there is no external heaven, we ALL have heaven in our hearts.

Christian heaven is a palliative. Heaven doesn't exist. Desire exists. The hope that all the suffering will be made up for in the end. It doesn't exist - that's why it's so wishy washy make it what you will kind of a concept.

ahundredtimes Thu 05-Feb-09 14:43:03

Actually your 'have it which ever way suits' reflection, kind of sums up why Heaven exists for people doesn't it? Your desires will one day be met - because erm, they will. And your desires are important whether they are a pair of boots, a beer with Boco, eternal happiness or to be together with a loved one.

I think FO's post is my problem with heaven. I like problem solving, I like to be challenged and occasionally uncomfortable - it is worthwhile. Without the struggle surely there is just stagnation and the mundane?

All my desires are contradictory - they are selfish and selfless; they are to be safe and to live on the edge; there is no one thing that fulfills them all - and if there were then I wouldn't be happy with the inconsistency of it all.

justaboutindisguise Thu 05-Feb-09 14:47:59

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PrettyCandles Thu 05-Feb-09 14:48:39

The Jewish relgion doesn't really have a heaven. There is a concept that the just will sit at god's right hand - but that's after the end of all things, after the end of this world, rather than after an individual's death. So I find the 'Christian' view of a heaven rather odd - it seems to me more a yearning or a desire, rather than a place: if our life is tough, then there must be something better afterwards.

But why do you need a better place to go to? Why not work on making your current place a better place? And accept that not all on god's earth is beauty - ugliness has it's place, too.

justaboutindisguise Thu 05-Feb-09 14:49:12

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justaboutindisguise Thu 05-Feb-09 14:50:11

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MauriceDancer Thu 05-Feb-09 14:51:49

have you read the lovely bones, rev? lord, what a shite book. heaven is an ice cream van. hmm

smile

PC has another good point, can the idea of Heaven - a place of ready-made perfection - detract from the effort to change things in life for the better?

IwishIwasamermaid Thu 05-Feb-09 14:52:42

I've never joined in with one of your discussions but I did lurk about on other threads that you were on wink

I was brought up in a religious house, it wasn't always that way but something so magical (or some other more appropirate word that i can't think of...) happened to me when I was very young and it prompted my parents to change their lives completely and still leaves me with a feeling of there being something else out there.

As a child I was scared of heaven though as I was worried that it would be a big empty space filling up with people and I wouldn't be able to find my family.

I strangley find it easier to imagine Hell, a place where the person you want to speak to isn't there or the book you want to read or the food you want to eat. Surrounded by a plentiful supply of all these things you can never find what it is you are looking for.

justaboutindisguise Thu 05-Feb-09 14:54:23

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justaboutindisguise Thu 05-Feb-09 14:56:51

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Perhaps that's where I find the whole concept so difficult to swallow, Rev. I see "Heaven" as it was told to me, as the end of a journey, as the point of arrival, not as a journey in itself. I shall consider the new angle...

(I quite liked Lovely Bones; heaven was odd, although I did like the idea of the world growing with our need for growth)

PrettyCandles Thu 05-Feb-09 15:04:04

I thought lovely bones was excellent. Heaven there was definitely a yearning - you 'graduated' from it, to some other heaven, once you stopped yearning and accepted that life continued on earth. I can absorb that sort of 'heaven' far more easily than the convenitonal western view of heaven. As a sort of way-station - whether to another heaven or to nothingness, just another step in life.

IwishIwasamermaid Thu 05-Feb-09 15:04:12

I'm just a bit sared people might flame me.

Ok, I was speeding towards the edge of a cliff (don't want to say how as it would out me to anyone who knew me irl) I was very young and my Dad was trying to catch up with me to stop what was happening. There was a big group of us, family, neighbours etc and it was nighttime. I remember that i wasn't scared but could hear shouting and yelling behind me, I was only 4 years old. My Dad was running and he fell and knew that he wouldn't be able to get up in time to save me from hurtling over the edge, so as he was on the ground he started to pray and as he was an atheist at the time he was obviously pretty desperate, he looked up from where he was lying expecting me to be gone but there I was right at the edge. There was no way that the accident could have been stopped without some sort of 'intervention' and that prayer that Dad said for my life changed everything.

IwishIwasamermaid Thu 05-Feb-09 15:05:32

I know that sounds really weird sad

justaboutindisguise Thu 05-Feb-09 15:06:48

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