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Philosophy/religion

Suffering

19 replies

needmorecoffee · 13/10/2007 13:23

why does god allow some children to be born disababled and too suffer?

OP posts:
dissle · 13/10/2007 13:28

eh?
dont get you, what do you mean?
who is this aimed at and do you mean personally or for other people?

smeeinit · 13/10/2007 13:28

its my belief that we choose the paths our lives take and we have lessons to learn in each of our lives.
to choose to suffer in your life may appear very strange and "why would we do that" but there is a lesson to learn from it.
i dont think ive exlained it very well,but i know what i mean!

buktus · 13/10/2007 13:36

i have had some cruel things happen in my life but i strongly believe if they hadnt of happened i wouldnt be the person i am today, good does come out of bad situations and i believe in fate and that everything hppens for a reason

dissle · 13/10/2007 13:38

Its my belief that our bodies let us down in illness,
its my belief that every thing happens for a reason and that disabled children are not an afliction sent by God but sent to us for a reason, not bad but for good.
I dont think that it has any thing to do with God, its just the way things are.
We are all unique.

DutchOma · 13/10/2007 15:54

This is one of the deepest questions anyone can ask and no-one can answer.
The only pointer I can give you is that we live in a fallen world, a world that has been made imperfect by sin, but a world that God eventually will redeem by His love.
God Himself was not immune to suffering since Jesus came to this world to suffer and die to redeem the world. So by accepting Jesus into our life we are not immune from suffering either, nor are our children, but we will live a life that has been redeemed by God.
Disabled children are not disabled in God's eye, He sees them just as He meant them to be. I know that this is very hard for us to accept, but as a Christian this is the only way I can cope with these difficult questions. There are no easy answers

needmorecoffee · 13/10/2007 16:30

I have a severely disabled daughter and am in a wheelchair myself. I've tried to lead a good life plus taken care of my health - don't drink/smoke/eat junk etc. Yet my daughter was born brain damaged.
Then I see junkies and child abusers popping out healthy babies thatoften they don't want.
Its just seems unfair. I used to be religious but ca't see how one life could be all if there's no even starting point.
Someone said god never gives you more than you can cope with but I can barely cope and some poeple give away their disabled babies because of the sheer hellishness of it all.
Thats why I asked. I can see any sense in any of it.

OP posts:
BrownSuga · 13/10/2007 19:02

when man was created there was no suffering, but as soon as Adam & eve chose to use their free will and allow themselves to be misled by Satan, imperfection and hence suffering entered into our lives.

we can't blame God for the bad things that happen at the moment, as 1 John 5:19 tells us, the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one showing that Satan is currently in control of this world.

Soon, God will retake the reins of rulership via his son, and promises the eyes of the blind will be opened and the ears of the deaf unstopped, the lame one will climb up like a stag, the tongue of the speechless will cry out in gladness. (Is 35:5,6) anything we are suffering now, will not be remembered by us in this new system Is 65:17,18 tells us the former things will not be called to mind, neither will they come up into the heart.... be joyful in what I am creating.

DutchOma · 13/10/2007 19:23

You say you can 'barely' cope, but you are coping. Am I right in thinking you have also an older daughter who has given you more than a bit of trouble?
Of course you struggle, but you struggle valiantly and you will overcome. God has triumphed over evil and will bring everything to a right conclusion.
There is nothing you have done wrong (apart from the fact that we are all sinners and none of us perfect) and there is nothing you could do to save yourself. Only God can do that for you if you will let Him.
I'm so sorry that life is so hard for you

needmorecoffee · 14/10/2007 11:11

but that doesn't explain why some are born brain damaged and some into riches.
I'm not a christian because it doesn't really make sense to me, especially the idea of the whole human race and innocent babies being punished for what our forebears did. Just can't get my head round it. I also have trouble with Pauline christianity rather than the more liberal teachings of Jesus.

OP posts:
DutchOma · 14/10/2007 12:48

Can I link this to the prayer thread where there are people more qualified than me to help you unravel the thoughts in your mind?
I'm praying for you that somehow you will be able to see the goodness of God in all the misery, that He will shine a light in your darkness and give you peace.

BrownSuga · 14/10/2007 22:14

yes it is unfair, and unfortunately it always seems like good people get all the suffering.

the misleading of adam & eve set off a question of universal sovreignty, who has the right to rule, and would people follow God of their own desire. jesus came to earth and died as a corresponding sacrifice for adam's sin this is a huge step in settling the debate, he proved faithful to God until death. (this coming was foretold in Gen 3:15, i shall put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. he (Jesus) will bruise you in the head, you (satan) will bruise him in the heel) the final act will be satan and his system being destroyed, after which people have the opportunity to live as perfect beings in paradise earth, sin and death done away with. (Rev 21:2-4. Tent of God is with mankind... they will be his peoples and God will be with them. He will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, niether wil mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away).


excuse my ignorance, but what is pauline christianity?

(i'm off to bed, but wikll check tomorrow)

MaryBS · 15/10/2007 07:43

Pauline Christianity is the teachings of Paul, specifically the letters he wrote.

I presume you have problems with what he had to say on women? If so, you're not the only one, and I'm training as a minister! Tom Wright, Bishop of Durham addresses the subject of women in ministry in one of his lectures, available online, if you're interested...

As for being punished for what our forebears did, Jesus died for our sins, "once for all", and took our punishment on himself. Disability is NOT a punishment from God!

I hope you don't think this poem is a bit trite, given your circumstances, but I gain a great deal of comfort from it. I am struggling with my son being diagnosed with Asperger's and the problems he is encountering at school because of it, and at home when I try to help him do his homework.

Sometime ago, I turned away from God because of various things that had happened to me, that I didn't understand. I made a vow recently, that no matter what happened, I'd never do that again, even though I don't understand why things happen. It isn't easy, God knows!

I asked God to take away my pain.
God said, No.
It is not for me to take away, but for you to give it up.

I asked God to make my handicapped child whole.
God said, No.
Her spirit was whole, her body was only temporary.

I asked God to grant me patience.
God said, No.
Patience is a by-product of tribulations, it isn't granted, it is earned.

I asked God to give me happiness.
God said, No.
I give you blessings, Happiness is up to you.

I asked God to spare me pain.
God said, No.
Suffering draws you apart from worldly cares and brings you closer to me.

I asked God to make my spirit grow.
God said, No.
You must grow on your own, but I will prune you to make you fruitful.

I asked for all things that I might enjoy life.
God said, No.
I will give you life so that you may enjoy all things.

I ask God to help me LOVE others, as much as he loves me.
God said... Ahhhh, finally you have the idea!

BrownSuga · 15/10/2007 10:41

ah i see.

i hope you didn't think i meant we're punished by God, because we certainly aren't. it is due to inherent perfection.

DH reminded me of a good illustration last night, in relation to Rom 5:12 through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned.

Imagine you were a baker and had a cake tin with a dent in it. Every cake you baked from that tin would have this dent or imperfection. At the moment this is what is happening from Adam onwards, we now need a "master baker" to fix the dent/imperfection.

needmorecoffee · 16/10/2007 15:06

MaryBS - that poem doesn't explain why some have a temporary body of wellness, and others get the bum deal.

As for Pauline Christianity, Paul seemed to create a religion very different from what Jesus originally taught. Paul contradicts Jesus several times and it was Paul who taught salvation through faith while Jesus emphasised that good works, behaviour and belief in God was important. But basically, Paul was not a Prohphet but his letters have been included in the bible (I forget the name of the council that chose which bits to keep and which bits to discard. Nicea?)

But that is a bit of an aside as to the main question. God created everything and is responsible for everything so why do some innocents suffer while the wicked may not? What happens after death isn't really relevant. Why dont all humans start on an equal footing? And given we are all sinful, why aren't we all born in pain and disabled?

As for death being a punishment for sin, isn't death the ultimate reward? You get away from earth and all its sufferings so its God's reward to us?

OP posts:
MaryBS · 16/10/2007 15:54

No, you're right, and if I had an answer for you which made sense, then everyone would believe in God, I'm sure. I don't have the answers, I only know what comforts me. From what I've seen the Christians with the strongest faith have been the ones who have suffered most. A lady from our church died earlier this year - she was in her 40s, and was confined to a wheelchair through cancer. She had such a strong faith in God and had no fear of death. When I looked at her, I didn't pity her, I saw this radiance shining out of her. I had no doubt that she was destined for heaven. I could ask, why doesn't everyone have the faith she had? And I wouldn't have an answer for that either.


Jesus also taught salvation through faith "I am the way the truth and the life, no-one can come to the father except through me". And Paul didn't say that good works weren't important, just that we couldn't guarantee salvation through good works alone. The point is, if people did good works every day of the year for the rest of their life, it wouldn't guarantee salvation. Salvation is a gift from God. We can't earn it. Having said that, faith without good works is pretty meaningless - you hear a message but you don't understand it.

DutchOma · 16/10/2007 16:22

You are right, NMC, nothing explains that. Everybody struggles with it, whether we have a difficult life or an easy one. As a Christian I believe that God is ultimately good and will bring things to a righteous conclusion. I don't see any more of it than you do, but I still believe. That's what faith is:- you don't see and you still believe.
Nobody undderstands God, because if we, with our puny minds could understand Him He would be a puny little God. There is lots in the Bible that I don't understand, but I do understand enough to keep me going in this life. What I do understand is that Jesus suffered more than anybody on this earth and He did it so we could have a relationship with God.
I'm well aware that I'm likely to be perceived as saying:"I'm alright Jack and to hell with everybody else", obviously that is not what I mean to say but there is nothing else I can say to you. We live in a fallen world and you can either believe God will ultimately make it better or you have to put up with it without hope.

BrownSuga · 16/10/2007 22:15

You;ll have to excuse me if this doesn't come across very eloquently, but bear with me.

I find it sad that people think they can't get to know God. He has lovingly provided details of his being in the Bible for us to read and come to a knowledge of him. . He has 4 main attributes, love, justice, wisdom and power. James 4:8 tells us Draw close to God and he will draw close to you. Abraham was called a friend of God. (James 2:23) Jesus displayed the attributes of his Father while he was on earth also. He had power over disease and death, he loved justice and showed indignation against the merchants exploiting people (Mat 21:12 threw the moneychangers out of the temple), he was wise in his teachings and he felt love for the people (Mat 14:14 he felt pity for them and cured the sick). So by studying events in the bible, and Jesus life on earth, and creation around us (Rom 1:20 his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the worlds? creation onward) we can come to know God.


I understand why people struggle with how some are born "normal" and some aren't. I have a maternal uncle both physically and mentally handicapped, the youngest of 13 children, so why him and not any of the others? Eccl 9:11 tells us time and unforeseen occurrence befall us, but we cannot determine who will be affected or not.

There are outside factors that can cause abnormalities as I'm sure you know, illness or exposure of the mother to certain diseases during pregnancy, radiation injury, chemical pollution, drugs (even some considered safe during pregnancy), excessively large quantities of some vitamins, malnutrition, improper diet, certain living conditions, age of mother, race.

But still, the basic cause of disability is the disobedience of Adam and Eve. Their sin against God caused them to lose their perfection of mind and body and produce ?defective? children. Each succeeding generation progressively drifted farther away from perfection. even if there were no adverse technology, war, malnutrition, there would still be deformed children because we are born of imperfect parents.

If you've managed to get through this bit, I will come back tomorrow to try and tackle your second part regarding death as a reward for suffering, rather than punishment for sin.

harrisey · 17/10/2007 08:16

I've been loathe to add to this debate as I'm not sure myself, and don't want to confuse things even more, as it is a very important question. But fwiw ....

I'm coming at this as a Christian. I agree with BS that it is the general 'fallen-ness' of the world that causes pain and suffering, but I'm not so sure about the literal-ness of Adam and Eve - I think thats a metaphor for human nature.

I think we just don't know about suffering. I certainly don't think that we are being punished by suffering, either for something we did in a past life (because I think we only have one life) and ot our children being punished for the wrong we did.

I think that the general imperfection of the world results in things going wrong, and that God has a different perspective on this to us. We want a here and now fix, but God is more interested in the whole universe being put right, from the hugest thing to the tiniest imperfections. So He did that by sending Christ, (and I could go into lots of stuff I did last year at college about salvation theory if you want, but I'd have to look some of it up ......) to sort things out.

My understanding is that when it is said 'the wages of sin is death' what is meant is that sin leads to not physical death but eternal seperation from God. Because that passage goes on to say that the gift of God is eternal life in Christ. Eternal life is a gift of God.

I dont know if this adds to the debate or just confuses things. It certainly doesnt answer the question!

BrownSuga · 20/10/2007 17:10

needmorecoffee if you check this again, i've been rummaging in my books and have found a brochure that i think will help explain for you, much better than i ever could. It's called

Does God really care about us? If so, why does he permit suffering? Will it ever end?

If you would like me to post it to you, I'm happy to do so, email me at:

[email protected]

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