Women in Christianity

[ZenNudist]

So today we had the Martha/Mary reading at church about Mary being the better sister for sitting around listening rapt to Jesus whilst Martha bustles around looking after everyone but gets a bit annoyed having to do it all. There was a sermon after about parents bustling round with busy lives but we should all make sure Jesus is at the centre of everything. All very well and good but you still have to get food on the table and clean up after.

It got me thinking of how alienating the bible and the Catholic church are to women.

Also how few the biblical reference points to women, that we can find ourselves asking if we are a Martha or a Mary. What if Im a Moses? (Im not, but just saying). I will wager no man ever felt the need to compare themselves to the female biblical characters. I know we use these bible stories as paradigms of human behaviour and we are stuck with religious teaching from a time when women were ignored or servile to men, but in 2000 odd years something could have been done to redress the balance.

And don't get me started on all male clergy!

Sooooo, any suggestions for reading about women and Christianity? Or just share how you reconcile a faithful life and praise for God from within the certain knowledge that the church is the ultimate patriarchy?

That sounds a bit harsh. I'm happy being Catholic despite all the millstones that come from being a centuries old organisation thats terrible at modernisation. At the end of the day its love of God that matters.

[Xiaoxiong]

Mary Daly!!

[Xiaoxiong]

Oh and also Rosemary Radford Ruether!

[isittheholidaysyet]

I sat around with the men during after Mass tea and coffee today.
They were discussing the gospel and how to focus on Christ when everything practical needs doing.
So some men are comparing themselves to female biblical characters, even if the ones you know aren't.

[ZenNudist]

Thanks, will look up these writers.

isittheholidaysyet that's comforting. I dont have a group I can talk about readings with.

[isittheholidaysyet]

zen
That's a shame, but these things are hard to find. I've managed to end up in the most amazing parish. (We moved for DH's work) I know it's not like most parishes.

Does your parish have social events? I find tea and coffee after Sunday Mass, and also we have a weekday Mass which is followed by coffee, both are a good place to meet people. But it might take a few months to move beyond small talk.

[Babdoc]

Christianity isn’t patriarchal- it’s just the way men have appropriated it.
The Holy Spirit impregnated Mary. What part did human men play in the Incarnation?
Nothing. Zippo. Nada.
Who stayed with Christ at the foot of the cross? The women.
Who ran away and denied knowing him? The men.
Who was the first witness of the Resurrection? A man? A male disciple?
No. Mary Magdalene! Known as the “Apostle to the apostles”.
Jesus had female disciples who travelled with him and financed his activities. It is thought one of them was the wife of Herod’s chief steward.
There are historical wall paintings of women preaching alongside St Paul. He addresses some women as leaders of churches in Asia Minor.
There is some evidence that the misogynist parts of St Paul’s letters were not written by him but added later - the writing style is different.
Jesus Himself was not misogynist. He spoke at length with the Samaritan woman at the well, when rabbis were not meant to speak even to Jewish women, let alone foreigners. He saved a woman about to be stoned for adultery.
He told parables in pairs, one for women, one for men, to address each sex equally in terms they would recognise. (Eg the lost sheep on the hills and the lost coin in the house).
Patriarchy only really reared its ugly head when Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire. A male dominated, military culture, it rapidly developed the church as yet another male power base, and excluded women from the priesthood.
Thankfully, in my own church (Church of Scotland), we have had female ministers for 50 years, and even female Moderators (the head of the national church). My own minister is a female double qualified lawyer and priest, and often preaches refreshingly feminist sermons!

[Madhairday]

Great post, Babdoc :)

I would struggle I think in the Catholic church for partly this reason - I love that women are in leadership in the Anglican church and bring so many gifts to their congregations. I'm with Babdoc about the Bible and particularly Jesus and Paul; they completely turned culture on its head in terms of ingrained misogyny and patriarchy. They honoured and liberated women; Paul astounded his audience by saying a woman should actually be allowed to learn, and he named women all the time who were partnering in the gospel, often before men (Priscilla and Aquila being a case in point.) He spoke of women apostles and deacons and leaders, in his list of noted leaders and partners in the church in Romans at least one third were named as women. All of this would have been completely counter to the culture.

And Jesus took time with women, honouring them by actually speaking to them and spending time with them. When the woman with a blessing condition sought healing he stopped to speak to her, to show her he saw her when she'd been shunned for years because of her illness, he stopped when others really wanted him to rush on, to acclaim her, to subvert all the norms of the patriarchal society.

Yes, the Mary and Martha story is often used, but there are loads of strong warrior women through the Bible we can identify with too. Look at Esther who saved a nation through sheer grit and bravery, at Ruth who stuck with her bereaved mother in law despite leaving all she knew behind, showing loyalty and bravery. At Deborah the judge and leader who was fierce in battle. At Rahab who hid the spies despite great peril to her and her family. Those are just in the OT.

I love that when we dig into scripture we find a different narrative than the one fed to us about women being lesser and weaker, and in fact find a narrative that upbuilds and honours, that shames those who would treat women badly.

[Madhairday]

*bleeding not blessing

[Madhairday]

I would have a look at Elaine Storkey, Paula Gooder and NT Wright, and yes some of the feminist theologians of the 20th century like Daly and Radford-Ruether, really thought provoking stuff.

[gabsdot45]

I have to disagree. You only have to read the NT to see how important women were to Jesus and how much he loved them.
The first person he showed himself to after his resurrection was a woman. (his wife maybe)

[Gone2far]

Try Maralynne Robinson. She's hard going but very good. A friend recommended Karen Armstrong to me.
The 1st people to witness Christ's resurrection were women.
Badhair I don't believe Deborah went into battle. She greeted the returning victorious army with a hymn. But the Bible never said she fought.

[FloralBunting]

Personally, the reason the Catholic Church fits me as a feminist type God believing oddity, is that despite a lot of other more front and centre liberal approach churches having women as priests and such, the Catholic Church has myriad female saints with equally diverse personalities, and a firm belief that they are not just examples, they are current fellow travellers with me. As in, I can ask for their prayerful support.

So it's not just a case of women in the here and now banding together to struggle against a patriarchal structure, I feel like I've got a huge army of women throughout the ages who have my back.

Plus I was reading a Marian prayer book yesterday at the bus stop, as you do, and it struck me as I read some middle English prayer about Mary not being pregnant by the will of a man, and something about how powerful her breasts were because they sustained the Almighty God as a vulnerable baby, and I just thought "That is not an Anti-Woman stance. And my faith is that this woman is my best friend, big sister and mother rolled into one."

That's how I roll with it. So, yes, definitely look up some of these more modern names, but have a butchers at the female saints all through the ages for inspiration too.

[Gone2far]

I totally agree with what you say floral (and I'm Anglican)
A recent inspirational read was The Eagle and the Dove by Vita Sackville West, on St Teresa of Avila and St Teresa of Lisieux. I found the section on the former fascinating. Unfortunately I don't find the latter at all interesting.

[FloralBunting]

See, that's a good example of what I mean - both saints are women who appeal to different people, or the same people at different times. St Teresa of Avila was forthright, formidable, articulate. I learn a lot from her and have much affection for her.
But The Little Flower has an appeal as a possibly someone slightly less intimidating - I know there have been times in my weakness when spirituality beyond just following the 'little way of love' has been beyond me. I think her simplicity is quite accessible in that sense, and let's face it, great spiritual heights are all very well, but if people dismiss them as too hard, they don't do any good at all.

[Babdoc]

Floral, I think Christianity is a broad church (pun intended!) and we all need to find the version or sect that we are comfortable with - our “spiritual home” if you will.
I’m sure there are as many paths to God as there are people, and He welcomes us all, however we get there.
My now retired old minister said once that, if he’d been born in Pakistan, he would probably have been a perfectly contented Muslim imam - he was very at ease with varied paths to God.
I don’t judge Catholicism on its theology, but I do have a bit of a problem with the celibate male priesthood and some of the anti feminist stuff on contraception, gay rights etc, which I think may result from the exclusion of women from the power base. We do recognise saints, male and female, in the C of S - they’re not a purely Catholic thing. We welcome all Christians, including Catholics, to take communion in our churches, but I gather the invitation is not returned - we can only have a blessing, not the sacraments. That also seems exclusionary to me.

[FloralBunting]

Babdoc, I have no interest in trying to convert anyone. I offered my experience and perspective as a feminist woman who has seen the very worst face of Christianity and still managed to find peace within one of the churches in it.
Please, if you can find a post of mine on MN where I have done other than acknowledge that everyone needs to find the spiritual or non spiritual path that they are meant for, then I'll apologise for it, because I don't believe in trying to coerce people into things they aren't happy with.

It's a hot day, so I'm going to assume my reading of your post as hostile towards me for simply sharing what ways I have found to come to terms with various anti woman things within the church, is me being over sensitive and hot and bothered.

If you're in good faith and just as hot and bothered as I am, and from your other posts I've no reason to think that you would be hostile to me, then I can address how I deal with some of those specifics you've raised, but I'm not going to respond straight away because I'd just be being defensive, and I'd rather feel reassured we were having a calm conversation.

[Toddlerteaplease]

Currently typing this sitting in a cafe in Lourdes. Both Mary and Martha are here.

[Babdoc]

Certainly not intended as hostile, Floral! I’m autistic, so sometimes have trouble with people reading emotional subtext into my remarks that really isn’t there.
Nah, I’m just interested in what attracts people to different forms of faith. As I said, there are many paths to God, but the same destination.
A lot of faiths have some misogynist bits, many more blatantly so than Catholicism, and it interests me how women reconcile that with their belief in an egalitarian and loving God.
Were you born into a Catholic family, or converted later? I was an atheist (a rabid one, think Richard Dawkinesque!) until my DH’s funeral. We happened to live in Scotland, so it was the C of S parish minister who converted me. I have Catholic and Muslim relatives though, so it makes for interesting discussions.

[FloralBunting]

Fair enough! Crazy hot here, and somewhat hair trigger!

Reading my initial post through again, I saw it could possibly be seen as a slight denigration of liberal Christians, which wasn't at all my intention as I would class myself as fairly progressive.

I'm actually a convert - secular family, atheist father, abusive and chaotic childhood and young adulthood. I was involved in fundamentalist Christianity when I initially converted. When I eventually escaped, bit by bit, I went through a lot of soul searching and eventually came to the understanding that I did indeed believe that Christianity was true, but like most things in life, fallen humanity had messed it up.

For me, the patriarchalism was sort of embodied in churches that lacked all colour and were very severe. I did nearly jump into paganism because I loved the connection to nature and the presence of the feminine in the day to day spirituality.

It was my friendship with a very humble and kind Oriental Orthodox priest who introduced me to an version of Christian spirituality that engaged fully with nature and material reality, and also had a strong feminine element that meant I decided to go the way I did.

I dont pretend to be happy with everything in the Catholic Church. I understand the theory behind some of the more troublesome doctrines, wrt contraception, marriage ( and let's not pretend the sex of marriage partners is the only issue in the CC!) and I don't always agree with it. But these things aren't deal breakers for me given that every church has it's own problems, and I have found with Catholicism a wide variety of views that mean I am comfortable with not quite fitting every peg in every hole. I am free to speak my own mind, and that's the main thing for me.

As to sharing communion, well, I believe in transubstatiation, one of my little oddities, so I have no problem with a closed communion. But I wouldn't receive communion in another church anyway. But that's a proper detail, so I will leave it there!!

[Babdoc]

Wow, you had a complex journey to your present position, Floral!
Did you consider joining the Orthodox Church, when you found their priest helpful? I don’t know a lot about them, but I remember attending a Greek Orthodox baptism in Corfu, which was amazing - they stripped the baby naked, anointed her with oil, and then held her completely underwater for what seemed ages, before literally flinging her to her dad, who caught her in a towel! I was v relieved when she cried, I thought I might have to volunteer to resuscitate her!
How bad is the heatwave down your way? I’m in Scotland and it’s bad enough here - all the tiny thunder flies are swarming, and they crawl all over you. It’s incredibly annoying and tickly in the humid weather.
I take your point about all religions having problems of patriarchy for female worshippers. The C of E took ages to have women bishops, and my own C of S took a while to be ok with gay ministers. My own female minister was on the committee that finally got that through the assembly.
I suppose you and I are atypical, not having been brought up in a particular church - but I think that makes us more able to evaluate them objectively. Joining was an active rather than passive decision, wasn’t it.
I also had an abusive childhood, and my sister and I both find it comforting to regard God as our parent, rather than the human horrors we had. Both are now dead, and definitely not mourned.

[FloralBunting]

I did consider converting to Orthodoxy, yes, but ultimately it came down to being able to actually get to a church - there aren't many Orthodox churches knocking about! But there are still quite a lot of Catholic parishes, so I made the pragmatic choice to worship in a church that believes the same things about the sacraments, by and large, and take a lot of the Orthodox understanding of things with me. The theology is really kind - they tend to reject the idea of the wrath of God, and the whole Incarnation is so central. I recall when I was having a miserable time potty training my firstborn, and I was getting good advice from other mums but for some reason felt such a wretched failure, my priest friend suggested I spend some time meditating on the fact that Our Lady had to toilet train Jesus.
It still sounds slightly ridiculous, but that meditation led me to profound places of understanding the depth and reality of Christ's humanity and humility, and made Mary very real to me - not just an unearthly, eyes heavenward alabaster statue, but a real mum who will have faced frustrations the same as me.

Yes, I think being a convert does create a certain perspective. I suspect, if you were an atheist, you are big on critical thinking? My dad drummed it into me from day one, that you examine, you ask questions, you don't just trust blindly. I've learned the lesson well because it was the times I didn't assess things critically that caused me the most pain.
So yeah, I guess that spiritual belief is one thing, but being able to take a step back and be clear sighted about what it is you are being told is another.

It's ridiculously hot here. I have a mini fan plugged into a USB port, but it's stand is broken, so every three minutes, it is twisting round and blowing away from me entirely. I'm trying to wedge it in to something to keep it still but the noise is horrendous!!!

[Madhairday]

Really lovely posts, Floral. I'm so glad you've come to a place you find peace and are able to worship, after going through such horrendous times.

I am fascinated about your thoughts on transubstantiation. Can you talk that one through for me? Very open to hearing it :) Thank you.

[FloralBunting]

Well, I'm aware that I don't want to derail OP's thread, so I will try and be brief. Basically, I was convinced when I started reading early church documents, that the first believers were quite convinced that they were eating Christ in the Eucharist, which was central to their worship. The churches that have had, as a feature of their worship, a very big focus on keeping very close to the earliest traditions, like some of the really persecuted Orthodox in the middle east and so on, all still held very firmly to this belief.

Now, the Orthodox don't call it transubstatiation. That's a term that came about through the more forensic, western approach of the Roman Catholics. But the concept of actually physically consuming Christ is very much there.

It's a hard doctrine to get to grips with, no doubt. But, for me, it's one of the most indefinably powerful parts of my faith - the Almighty God loves me so much, that not only did He come to earth as a human being and live a difficult life and die a difficult death, He comes every day to continue to be physically united to me. He is not a distant being, He is absolutely immanent.

Couple that with a very basic idea of 'you are what you eat' and if I consume the all-loving God, there's a better chance of me becoming more loving etc. it's pretty central to me.

Wrt closed communion - personally I don't have an issue with it - if you don't believe the stuff I've just outlined, why would you be keen to receive communion in my church? I don't receive in other churches because I dont believe the same thing as they do about the ceremony, and part of the idea of communion is that you agree to what it us you are consuming.

Hsat, that's just communion. I'm more than happy to engage in many ecumenical endeavours - with other Christians and other faiths. It's just there are always going to be parts of our beliefs that we cannot share with others, and that's just reality. As long as we don't rip into others on that basis, it's ok.

(Hope I haven't gone on!!)

[Madhairday]

Not at all. I find that fascinating, and really beautiful in your words about the immanent God. I guess I think the same but probably in a more metaphorical way rather than the actual physical substance, which means I don't think the same at all really, I guess! But definitely see Christ as in the Eucharist, there is something very powerful and beautiful about it, whether just in remembrance and thanksgiving or more than that.