Reading the Quran

[JellySlice]

I'm not Muslim, but I am interested to read the Quran. I tried a few years ago, but didn't really get anywhere as I found it very confusing. I began at the beginning, expecting some sort of narrative, as with the Torah and the Gospels.

Should I approach it in a different way?

[WiseOldElfIsNick]

Are you an Arabic speaker? Apparently you need to read it in Arabic or you won't understand it properly. Also, you have to wash your whole body before reading it and recite some phrases first.

[JellySlice]

That's if you are reading it in Arabic and as an act of faith. I doubt that the same applies if you are a non-Muslim reading it in the local vernacular. I have never heard that the Quran is forbidden to non-Muslims.

[OutwiththeOutCrowd]

I have been reading the Quran as a non-Muslim. I view it as an ancient document charting the evolution of Islamic religious ideas rather than as a revealed text. From this perspective, I have found it makes more sense to read it in chronological order rather than traditional order. The chronological order of the surahs (chapters) can be found on-line.

English translations are available on-line. The Pickthall translation is well regarded. If you are Christian, be prepared for a harsh attitude towards those who believe in the divinity of Jesus (Isa in Islam) in some of the verses.

I have found reading the Quran illuminating as it provides an alternative description of Jesus, one that is probably closer to the way he was viewed by his original Jewish followers, despite the fact Islam is ostensibly a much younger religion than Christianity.

[missfattyfatty]

In Islam preservation and memorisation of the holy book was always the paramount virtue. 1400+ years a modern Quran is still unchanged from the earliest Quran ever found despite a plethora of sects in Islam.
A large part of this is to do with the way it is organised.

A western reader expects chronology as the Bible and Torah are organised that way.

But the Quran was compiled with an eye to length of chapters: big chapters at the beginning then little chapters. It’s for ease of standardisation/preservation among varied groups of people speaking different languages who wouldn’t understand Arabic. Organisation by length is visual and auditory: to take away the focus from debate of timeline theology to making it much easier to sort.

Length also makes it easier to organise memorisation, one can either start from the shortest chapter towards the longest or start from longest chapter towards the shortest. And measure ones progress through the Quran by that.

a chronological system requires comprehension which then needs a priest class to explain and maintain. with the risk that it changes focus from the primary language.

[OutwiththeOutCrowd]

Missfattyfatty, for me, looking at the Quran as an ancient document, I do find it helpful to consider the chronology of the revelations. Knowing which verses belong to the Mecca period and which to the Medina period and the historical background in both cases has made it easier for me to understand the Quran as the evolving, dynamic document it would have been during the period of revelation. Furthermore, if one accepts the principle of abrogation, then it’s necessary to know chronological order as this gives one a handle on which verses are to be given greater weight.

I understand that the traditional order might be preferable for memorisation and recitation, but I want to understand the Quran within the context of the time it was written and the historical events contemporaneous to the period of revelation.

I’m sure that much of the musicality of the Quran depends on it being in the Arabic language and in that respect the experience of reading it in English falls short in comparison.

I also prefer to read the bible in chronological order rather than the traditional order in which the contributory books are collected for the same reason!

[missfattyfatty]

But then chronology may mean different things to different people.

you outwith are interested in the chronology of revealed chapters, you want to know which are Makkan and which are Madinan. your interest coming from a Judeo-Christian background is in abrogation. and that's logical for you - abrogation is how Christians defend the New Testament Bible from the brutality of the Old Testament Bible atheists attack them on.

But many others would expect chronology to be 'in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.....' as in genesis, and their interest is a linear timeline of history. that also is logical, probably the most logical.

Full chapters were not revealed all in one time, according to islamic history Muhammad (pbuh) would receive revelation according to life circumstances and then later instruct the companions which chapters those verses would go into. so people may ask that chronology follows the precise order of revealed verses (which were based on circumstances in the life of the Prophet pbuh) rather than just grouped into chapters. that understanding of chronology would also seem logical.

non of those surmisings are illogical, peoples own cultural backgrounds affect what they consider as chronology. therefore, the way the Quran was ordered - chapter length- was to remove that debate of the meaning of chronology and it was simple enough that any among the muslim majority populations among the bedouin, the nomads in the steppes, the african pastoralists etc could understand and maintain alone.

most Muslims because of the way it is compiled and read approach the teachings of the Quran thematically outwith. as an individual 'where am i in my life at the moment and what wisdom can i get from the holy text to help me in this time'. or as a member of a community 'where are my people at this moment in time and what from scripture can help us improve ourselves.'

[JellySlice]

missfattyfatty, where would you recommend I start?

[missfattyfatty]

Dear jellyslice i really commend you for trying to read the Quran.

When I am reading the Quran in arabic, for reciting during Ramadan etc, i start from the beginning and go through all the way to the end.

but when i read the Quran alongside a translation for comprehension, then I usually start from the end of the Quran where the chapters are short and easy to understand and i work my way backwards through the Quran that way.

but you can choose any way you like. the Quran's arrangement is mechanical, not historical, but that also makes it timeless to us muslims as it takes it away from a linear historical recounting and makes it relevant to all times and to all peoples.

[OutwiththeOutCrowd]

Yes I agree there can be some ambiguity about the meaning of ‘chronological’ missfattyfatty. To clarify, I’m interested in reading religious verses in the order in which they are written down as this allows the changing cultural, religious and political influences on the text to be more easily understood.

In the case of the bible that would mean reading Paul’s letters before the gospels even if that reverses the order from the narrative perspective.

The word ‘understanding’ also has different connotations for different people. In my case, I seek an understanding of why a viewpoint might be expressed in scripture from knowledge of the historical context. In contrast, your motivation is to gain a spiritual understanding.

It is rather as if the verses of the Quran are paintings in a gallery. I want the gallery organised so I can see a smooth transition in style from the more peaceable Mecca period through to the less peaceable Medina period. For you, thematic groupings fit your purpose better.

I don't think one is the right way and one is the wrong way. It depends on your objective. I suggest my way to those whose interest is of a secular nature and for those who might wish to understand the interconnections amongst the Abrahamic faiths.

[missfattyfatty]

"I want the gallery organised so I can see a smooth transition in style from the more peaceable Mecca period through to the less peaceable Medina period."

the thing is that, makkan or madinan chapters are classified according to where the opening verses were revealed, even if later verses were sent down whilst Muhammad pbuh was in the other city.

www.quran-institute.org/articles/makkan-and-madinan-revelations

so even for people who wish to delineate the peace verses of the Quran as historical anomalies because they consider the later war verses of the Quran the real face of Islam. saying the organisation of their reading is for chronology is not accurate at all. you would need to know which verses were makkan or madinan, not just which chapters if you wanted to know the historical context.

I myself like to know which verses are referring to which events in the life of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh, and it is nice to explain them according to his own life events in order.

but I can see that the people who would consider chronology as starting from the beginning of time, to each prophet in order of their chaplaincies, to ending with Muhammad pbuh lifetime, those people also have the right of it.

there isnt any right way or wrong way as you said outwith. it depends on the reader's perspective coloured by their own background and preferences.

And in actual fact the chapters dealing with war tend to be large and are found near the beginning of the Quran so someone reading from the first page as the OP would find them pretty soon anyway. they're not hidden deep in the middle or the end.

some consider the Makkan and madinan periods as like the difference between the Old Testament and New Testament where the latter abrogated the former. whereas the Quran is one single book. It is not multiple gospels or the works of different prophets brought together as the Bible compiles what we consider as the Torah, the Zabur and the Injeel: (the books of Moses, David and Jesus). the same themes come up throughout the Quran and to muslims its a coherent, consistent, unified literary work not two separate works which is why the focus is not on which chapters are from which period.

in fact to ordinary muslims the makkan period was v crucial for laying down the theory and spirituality of the religion, the history of monotheism, islam's place in it, the creation of our religious identity. (that's why we start children on the short chapters found at the end of the Quran and work our way in from that direction.)

whereas the madinan chapters are about the structures, the rigours, the rules of the faith. wash arms this way, don't eat meat from ....., walk like this, don't talk like that etc..... laying down islam's orthopraxy. we cannot dismiss the makkan chapters because without the faith and explanation of religion laid down in those chapters the madinan chapters would be merely rules and regulations with no faith underpinning. so theyre significant far beyond a binary understanding of war and peace. Good luck with your readings.

[JellySlice]

Do Muslims consider that the NT abrogated the Torah? I know that that is the Christian understanding.

[missfattyfatty]

hello jellyslice. We muslims do believe that Jesus came to relieve the Jews of some of the laws of the Old Testament. in the third chapter of the Quran it recounts the message of Jesus to his people the Jews:

"And [I have come] confirming what was before me of the Torah and to make lawful for you some of what was forbidden to you. And I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, so fear God and obey me." (Surah 3 Ali Imran, verse 50).

some of the laws of the Torah were set aside by the coming of the Jesus and we believe that, but not so far as the introduction of some of the theology that is in the NT. and muslims ourselves still keep some of the OT rites such as circumcision and ritual slaughter and prohibition of pork which christians don't keep. but the Quran relieved muslims from keeping the Sabbath as the Jews and Christians had to (62:9-10).

hope i answered that well for you OP!

[OutwiththeOutCrowd]

As an outsider to both Christianity and Islam, I find myself feeling more at ease with the Islamic conception of Jesus.

Growing up in the UK, the symbol of the cross is ubiquitous and, even as a non-religious person, when I see a cross I feel a certain sense of guilt, probably instilled in childhood, about the crucifixion and what it says about sinful mankind.

But in Islam, you get Jesus as a central powerful and loving figure pretty much as he is in the bible - but without the guilt! I was strangely relieved to read in the Quran that Jesus was taken up to be with God without being crucified – and yet Muslims still get to go to heaven if they are good enough, and they can be good enough. In Islam, there’s no need for the crucifixion, indeed doubt is cast on it having happened at all.

I also like the Islamic system of degrees of heaven and hell and the notion that you can eventually move from hell to heaven post-death. In Christianity, once you are in hell it’s too late, you’re stuck there.

These might seem like abstruse issues, particularly for a nonbeliever like me, but Islam just seems more upbeat about humanity and I think this will colour the way people think of themselves and of others during life.

Actually, I'd be interested to know if others who have been brought up in a Christian country struggle like me with the guilt of the crucifixion, whether they are a believer or not.

[WiseOldElfIsNick]

Actually, I'd be interested to know if others who have been brought up in a Christian country struggle like me with the guilt of the crucifixion, whether they are a believer or not.

As a fellow non-believer brought up in the UK, I can honestly say I don't feel guilty about the crucifixion. I personally can't understand what I should feel guilty about.

[OutwiththeOutCrowd]

It’s not something that can be justified on rational grounds and I don't think you should feel guilty.

In my case I feel it’s a partly a consequence of being brought up in a time and place where just about everybody went to church and the atmosphere in my primary school was quite religious. Being a nonbeliever meant you were beyond the pale. We were all wretched sinners but somehow the believers were absolved and nonbelievers like me were left to carry the can - that's how it felt, even if it wasn't logical for me to buy into that narrative.

You might imagine it like being the only black child attending a school full of white children and there being a message promulgated that only white people can be moral. You can dismiss it with your rational mind but some of it seeps into your bones.

Anyway, sorry, that's a long way from the Quran!

[missfattyfatty]

Far from the Quran and the Torah because as far as I know Jews as well as Muslims do not believe in Original Sin? Ergo, no need for the guilt and therefore the need for sacrifice.

But I actually envy the Christians their belief that they are absolved of sin by the death of Jesus. In Islam heaven is won or lost by ones own deeds. Christian doctrine would relieve me of the constant feeling of stress about whether my deeds are sincere enough, pure enough, whether someone I backbited years ago will come back at me on the day of judgement asking for my good deeds in recompense for the wrong I had done them, I think we are maybe saved of guilt the achristian has about the death of Jesus outwith, but instead we are loaded with anxiety about our standing with God!

[OutwiththeOutCrowd]

Missfattyfatty, I prefer the getting in through good deeds narrative of Islam since you can control your own actions, at least to an extent. In Christianity it’s more about what you are able to believe and it’s hard to make yourself believe without evidence if you are a natural sceptic like me. According to Christianity, I’m never going to get into heaven, even though I try to be a good person but I might just manage to slip in under Islamic rules if I try my absolute hardest.

I also like the idea in Islam that even if you get it wrong in life, there's some chance of moving up the hell/heaven levels after death.

(Not that I get to choose the rules of the universe - I'm just stating a preference!)

[missfattyfatty]

"I also like the idea in Islam that even if you get it wrong in life, there's some chance of moving up the hell/heaven levels after death. "

from the hadith only the inhabitants of the first layer of hell have the chance of redemption to go to heaven, those who have some good in them but have done alot of wrong deeds.

You know the first time I read about Dante's Divine Comedy i wondered at how similar it was to the islamic conception of hell. in the hadith literature the prophet Muhammad pbuh described hell as seven layers and each layer worse than the one before descending downwards - i dont think theres anything like that in christian or jewish eschatology. I know Dante placed Muhammad in hell anyway but there are alot of parallels.

forum.quartertothree.com/t/divine-comedy-and-islam/48381

the Quran describes that each person has a book of good deeds and bad deeds that get weighed on the day of Judgement for which one is heavier. i always saw more similarities to Ancient Egypt than in the other monotheistic religions descriptions of the DOJ.

www.experience-ancient-egypt.com/egyptian-religion-mythology/egyptian-afterlife/weighing-of-the-heart-ceremony

in islam it is the angels that administer the weighing of the books of deeds, and then after that is done people are brought for final judgement to God. some people may come to that standing laden with good deeds but leave empty because they oppressed someone in the temporal world and now must give restitution. and some people may come to God for final judgement with small good deeds but because they were wronged in the temporal world God will give them the good deeds of the person who hurt them.

in this way Muhammad warned his followers to be scrupulous about the rites of others because God doesnt forgive the wrongs you do to others but can forgive the wrongs you do against yourself.

[Racecardriver]

The Quaran was written as it was dictated to Movammed so you should read it front to back. Some of the later passages contradict earlier ones. The rule when you come across a contradiction is that the later passage repeals the eariler passage so you disregard the earlier passage in favour of the later one. It provides an interesting account of how Islam developed.

[JellySlice]

Why do Christians feel guilt about Jesus' manner of death? TBH that's not something I'm aware of, and I, too, am a non-Christian brought up in mainstream UK. I thought Christians feel that they owe JC a debt of gratitude, rather than the need to make reparations.

WRT to concepts of heaven and hell, I prefer the Jewish perspective, as it aligns more closely to my humanist leanings: that adults take responsibility for their actions, and thus create heaven or hell in this world. It doesn't explain everything - no religion ever does, except to its adherents - but I feel more comfortable with the concept than with either someone dying for me, or that I must wait in acceptance for my reward or punishment, and especially that I will never know which it will be until it's too late.

[OutwiththeOutCrowd]

Judaism is my favourite Abrahamic faith JellySlice. Though there are aspects of Islam I prefer over Christianity, I’m not good at submitting and trusting, so Judaism, with its emphasis on questioning, seems to be the one I’d feel most at home with if I wasn’t an atheist. Israel means ‘he who struggles with God’ and I’m more of a grappler than a submitter, I feel. I also spent a happy year living with a Jewish family.

The idea of different levels of heaven or hell doesn’t seem to be a big part of Christianity although St Paul did mention a ‘third heaven’ at one point. In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, there appears to be one hell and one heaven and no way of going from one to the other. There are seven heavens in the Talmud and I think the idea crops up in Gnosticism and Buddhism too.

I wonder if the number seven keeps appearing because it is a prime number and therefore it seems fundamental and special.

[missfattyfatty]

jellyslice we all follow our conscience and what makes sense and is logical to us. outwith i liked how you distinguished between grappling and submitting, i too notice that difference in the faith tradition of the children of Isaac compared to the children of Ishmael. part of the reason i feel at ease with Jews and Hindus is that they have rules just like us that they follow for the sake of the faith and often thats a commonality and a comfort. i don't really know as much about judaism as i would like, but i remember some years ago my eldest flummoxed me with a deep philosophical question and I found the answer on an ask the Rabbi page! it satisfied her and me as it turned out!

[missfattyfatty]

oh and yes i agree with you about the number 7 it does have much significance. i didnt know that the Jews believed in seven heavens, in islam also its believed there are 7 heavens ascending, 7 hells descending, etc. i also agree with you about prime numbers being special, as well as 7 another prime number, 19, is also mentioned in the Quran and also it has some significance in Kabbalah also. the obvious connection would be the 19 year lunar cycle that both religions are mindful of but there could be something deeper. but tbh mysticism, islamic or otherwise, isn't really my thing too much!