Churchgoers! How do you keep your toddler happy during mass, or am I onto a loser from the start?

[Lovecat]

DD is 2.2

I've taken her to mass since she was 3 weeks old, for the first year of her life she was good as gold, never made a sound, never played up, I was hoping that by taking her to mass that early on, she'd get used to it and behave when she got older.

However... it appears that familiarity has bred contempt and she will not stay seated in the pew next to me. Now, I'm not so unreasonable that I expect her to follow the mass, or sit quietly doing nothing, but I would at least like her to stay in the pew and not make too much noise.

I can't leave her at home, the OH works on Sunday mornings, so if she doesn't go to church, I can't go to church. There is no sunday school, we have a new parish priest who is very sniffy about kids in general (actually we've been trying to work out whether he's cripplingly shy or just has no social skills whatsoever). Just before Christmas he suggested to me that I don't bring her as it's becoming 'obtrusive' for the rest of the congregation, which really upset me, as this is what she does:

I sit in the 2nd to back pew, right at the end so if she does kick off I can make a quick getaway so she won't disturb people.

However, this means she can get out to the back of the church, and she goes off and sits on the low step next to the windows. When she gets bored with me ignoring her, she'll come back for a minute or so, then potter off again. If I try to make her sit with me or stop her from going, she screams the place down, so my view is that it's better to have her quietly wandering than yelling throughout mass. However, it's pretty constant and she'll try to go up with the offertory procession etc as 2 little girls who sit behind her (who adore her) help with it and she will toddle off behind them. Apparently this is disruptive....

She will also say things quite loudly, our church has good acoustics so it carries, and no matter how I tell her beforehand that she must be quiet in church, or shush her when we're in there, it has no effect.

Threatening to take her out is no good, she doesn't want to be in there in the first place, so it's no punishment, even if I make her stand in a corner once we're outside...

If I bring toys and books she will bang them on the pew, as she likes the noise they make, so that's a non-starter.

Should I be bothered about this or press on regardless? I feel like I've gone 10 rounds with Mike Tyson by the time communion comes around! I also feel like I haven't attended mass, as I've been too concerned with what she's doing/where she is.

Is she just too young for mass?

If anyone has any tips, please, please share them!

[SSShakeTheChi]

I couldn't do it, it was pure stress. Like those children's churches where the dc are taken out for a time to do something in a group and come back in again at the end but nothing like that here.

[DutchOma]

The only thing to do is to find another church which is much more child friendly or to go to mass at the time when someone else can have dd. The only thing you are achieving at the moment is that she will hate going to church and maybe even come to dislike you for taking her. You are doing a great job trying to take her, but there is no way you can do it in a church that insists on silence during the service. Their problem, not yours!

[PandaG]

OH Lovecat - sounds dreadful Is there not another church locally that you could go to, that is a bit more welcoming to children? I have tried feeding a child all the way through a service - lots of healthy snacks that take a while to eat - carrot sticks, rice cakes etc. Our church has both children's groups, and a creche area with toys, and no one bats an eyelid if there are children dancing at the front during the worship. Hope you find somewhere that you are both welcome soon.

[ChippyMinton]

lovecat, i feel for you, i really do. We had to give up going to mass as a family because it was very stressful trying to keep the DC quiet. Now DH takes DS1. I expect the younger two to start attending regularly when they start school. Does your church have a Saturday evening mass you could attend instead?

[FiveFingeredFiend]

A lot of churches have a cell i mean 'quiet' room for children.

You could accompany her to the childrens liturgy ( if your church does one) which means your out of it until communion.

I think you should change churches if at all logistically possible

[Lovecat]

Thanks for the support - PandaG, your church sounds great! We are hopefully moving this year, so I've been holding on, telling myself that we'll be somewhere else soon, but at the rate we're going, I think I shall have to look elsewhere.

We're catholic, and I cannot ever recall there being any kind of children's bit where they get taken out to do other stuff (went to Brownies church parade at a United Reform place once a month when I was a girl and was always very jealous of that!) so it may be that I'll just have to look for a church in the area with a more sympathetic priest.

The last thing I want to do is turn her off church - my mum used to hold out the carrot/stick of not getting our sunday chocolate if we misbehaved in mass, but she's too young for that.

Thing is, I get on great with the rest of the congregation, she has a fanclub of nuns who look forward to seeing her every week, the 2 little girls I've previously mentioned and an OAP couple who love her, but I just get so stressed when she starts 'acting up' (ie behaving like a 2 yr old!) that it's wearing me down.

Thanks again!

[Lovecat]

Oops, took me so long to type all that I x-posted!

Chippy, there is a saturday evening service but it's at 6pm, the start of her bedtime routine, which is why I've fought shy of going to it before now. I will discuss with the OH (apparently giving her a bath is far more techical an endeavour than I realised) and see if it is do-able.

FFF, no children's liturgy, I'm afraid. Nor any cells - it's a 'modern' (1960's) church, very airy and all open-plan. We have to physically go outside to get away from the service.

[SSShakeTheChi]

We're Catholic too . Our church is always jampacked, totally overcrowded and it's very difficult with dc. They have a family service Sunday mornings, so those not keen on being disturbed by dc know to avoid that one. They sometimes, but not every week, have something organised for dc. You drop them off in the church hall, go to the service and the dc troop back into church towards the end. Our church is FULL of dc so they can't do anything much with them effectively, they decorate candles, sing a bit or talk about something.

The Anglican church (very small congregation here) and various other denominations seem to have much more organised programmes for dc which is a lot easier on the parents.

[ChippyMinton]

Our (catholic) church has a children's liturgy, same as FFF, but children have to be able to go on their own and sit and listen - ie at least 3yo, preferably 4yo.

[coffeepot]

Lovecat, sorry to hear you are finding it difficult. Have you spoken to your parish priest about it? Do you know if most people find it disruptive ? or is it just one or two parishioners? When my dd was that age I was convinced she was making an huge noise and being very disruptive but other people told me it wasn?t a problem. Now I barely notice the noise other toddlers make. It probably isn?t as loud as it sounds to you.

I remember one lovely visiting priest at Mass before I had children saying he loved to hear the sound of children during Mass ? and that it was like little birds chirping in the rafters. And at another church with dd, when I got upset once by one elderly lady complaining about children our parish priest told me not to worry and he would much rather have children in the church. So long as you do your best to encourage your child to behave I?m sure most people ? the silent majority perhaps ? won?t mind at all. Now my dd is older I find I much prefer a church full of families to one with a kind of deadly silence about it.

Do you have a children?s liturgy in your church. We only have one once a month but it really helps.

The good news is it will get better. Your child will get old enough to sit and quietly look at picture books. Before you know it will be your child taking part in the offertory procession.

[Lovecat]

Thanks, coffeepot - it actually seems to be the priest himself who finds her disruptive. He glares over in her direction when she makes a noise and he's the one who raised the issue before Christmas. If anyone has complained, I can't think who, we have a small congregation and pretty much everyone stops and smiles at her/chats with me on the way out.

We used to have a lovely priest, but sadly he died of a heart attack a few years ago and we got this guy instead - first thing he did on arrival was cancel the candlelit midnight mass (a tradition that had been going for many years) as he didn't want to stay up that late...

[TheHun]

have to say that rice cakes and raisins always worked for me. Your priest is outrageous for suggesting you don't bring her, no wonder congregation numbers are dwindling. I now have a 3.5 year old, 11 month old and another due in Nov, dh works sundays, don't know how I'll manage!!

[collision]

We take sticker books for our two.

Although we do not go to a catholic church which I reckon probably picks up lots more noise ours do sit quietly and get on with things.

however, ds2 (2.7) did sneak a toy train and a dinosaur in yesterday and hurled it at someone!!

Fruit pastilles work too!!

[beautifulgirls]

Our church has a little area at the back with a few small child seats, a childs table and various toys to occupy them. They are very laid back about children being there and it makes the services so welcoming to all. Once a month the service is totally child orientated, with puppets, musical instruments for all the kids to play (bells and the like), kids coming out to help act our stories etc, and no-one bats an eyelid when a child cries or wanders about a bit. The congregation is a totally mixed age, and the older generation seem to love the children getting involved. There is a sunday school group on the other Sundays in the month but our DD's are still too young for that yet.

I cant give you any specific advice to help you other than to consider looking at other churches around that have a better attitude to having children about. I'm sorry your church are pushing her away in effect.

[amidaiwish]

we go to catholic church and i am shocked at your experience
over the years i have never come across a priest who didn't welcome children
he sounds like he has issues tbh... find somewhere else or just leave it for a bit. 2.2 is a very tricky age. my 3.2 year old is good - she will sit and read/colour etc esp if bribed with swimming for being good. DD2 is 19m and won't sit still - but i just let her wander about and distract her with books/juice/biscuits etc.

[geogteach]

Is there another parish close by?
I know many people who come to our church from the 2 neighbouring parishes because it is seen to be more welcoming to children. Children can go to children's liturgy from when they go to pre school (in reality most go from about 2 accompanied by parents). There is a supply of 'happy bags' at the back of the church each with a colouring book, picture books and a cuddly toy to keep children amused during the service. Some people choose to sit in the side chapel where they can hear but not be heard. Having said all this there are still plenty of kids wondering around in church. I strongly believe children should go to mass, we cannot expect them to start attending when its time for first communion. If there are other families in the congragation perhaps you could approach the priest together to ask for more child friendly masses?

[geogteach]

Is there another parish close by?
I know many people who come to our church from the 2 neighbouring parishes because it is seen to be more welcoming to children. Children can go to children's liturgy from when they go to pre school (in reality most go from about 2 accompanied by parents). There is a supply of 'happy bags' at the back of the church each with a colouring book, picture books and a cuddly toy to keep children amused during the service. Some people choose to sit in the side chapel where they can hear but not be heard. Having said all this there are still plenty of kids wondering around in church. I strongly believe children should go to mass, we cannot expect them to start attending when its time for first communion. If there are other families in the congragation perhaps you could approach the priest together to ask for more child friendly masses?

[Marina]

That is such a shame!
We have endured a year of dd being frisky in morning service (Sunday School starts from three), with her worst moment being nearly taking out the Crucifer, who is very old and didn't see her coming - mind, we didn't see her go...both the dcs have heckled, mooned, galloped and shrieked at very inappropriate moments in their time but are now pillars of the Sunday School
They do grow out of this Lovecat. So I'd say, that as there are other parishioners who do like to see your dd in church, I'd stand my ground. At the moment you cannot make her behave, and the priest really should accept this. It is very tempting to vote with your feet and find another church (we love ours, it is very forgiving of lively youngsters), but then your PP has won.

[inanidealworld]

This is v. sad and echo the idea that this non-inclusivity is what puts people off going to church. If possible I would look for another church. Our church (Anglican) has a family service on a Sunday and actively welcome children. They almost expect noise. They have a children's slot then the children go to Sunday school or the creche in the vicarage so the parents can hear the sermon. My Ds is also fidgety to say the least so much so that sometimes I am inwardly embarassed but no one has ever batted an eyelid.

[tokentotty]

Perhaps your priest needs to re-read the guidance for couples getting married in the Catholic Church... They won't do it unless you pledge that you are willing to accept children as the 'gifts from God' that they are and that you also promise to raise them within the faith. Tough if your parish priest doesn't even want you in the church I'd have thought

[harrisey]

Thats awful. We had no Sunday school in our (High Anglican) church for years but noone ever suggested nit bringing our kids (we have since moved house - and church - to an area with a great church for kids).

I once apologised to the preist for the noise the children were makeing (colouring in etc) in the pews and he said never to apologise again.

"Let the little children come to me, and forbid them not, for the kingdon of heaven belongs to such as these' Matthew 19:13-15

I'd find either another church or another parish myself, if my children werent welcome.

[mrsdarcy]

What a shame about your priest. It doesn't sound as though your DD is doing anything terrible at all - just behaving like a 2 year old.

The (RC) church I go to has a Family Mass which is full of children, and everyone is fine about it. There is a Sunday School for school-age children, and about 1.5 years ago a group of us set up something for pre-schoolers which runs from the beginning of Mass until the Offertory. It really takes the pressure off to know that I only have to control DD for the last 20 minutes or so.

Would it be worth talking to the priest about setting up something like that? Would anyone else be interested in doing it with you? It would be a shame to have to find another parish as it sounds as though in every other respect this parish suits you.

[coffeepot]

LC,
It is a shame the pp is being so unhelpful. I think at that point I might start looking at the next nearest parish, but if all the parishioners are friendly and welcoming it is a shame to leave. It might still be worth talking to your pp. It sounds like he doesn?t understand children but I doubt if he means to be unwelcoming to children. Can you go and explain that it is important to you to go to Mass and you feel it is important to take your child too, and just tell him (gently) that you feel awkward because you are been made to feel unwelcome. Just try and get him on your side? Challenge him to come up with a solution (other than excluding the children).

If that doesn?t work I think then I would be tempted to go elsewhere and find a more welcoming parish.

Hope you find a solution soon - keep ing

[ZipadiSuzy]

I belong to quite a high church (cofe) and always feel bad when my 3yo twins play up, but we do have a table at the back for little ones, I take pictures to colour, glueing, playdough, whatever.... as long as they are quiet, but!!!!!! remember, our own children always seem to be louder, but are they?

Couldn't you introduce a ' tykes little pic-nic bench type of thing at the back of church for lo's

This morning at the end of the service the vicar asked if the children (only mine) had anything for 'show and tell' my DS said "I want to go and show Jesus my picture" aw bless him, the thing was, I'd done it, my DD had cut the others up, so I declined the vicars kind offer to the amusement of the congregation!

Good luck in finding a more friendly option!

[zookeeper]

We're catholic and although none dare say anything I used to feel awful when our three (then 3, 1 and a baby were noisy and so I stopped going. Now we have a children's liturgy - the two eldest disappear and come back after the creed and I go with the youngest to the babies' room and come back with her at the same time.

I still had to leave after communion today as the three year old was shouting "fart" very loudly...

I'm deterined to keep going though.

your priest sounds a bit mean - maybe try another church for a while?