Question about coverings in Islam

[Albadross]

Genuine question, not intended to goad or cause any offence!

How do children with additional needs - e.g. autism or anything else that makes communication a bit different - cope when their mothers/sisters etc. cover their faces?

If they're all out in a large group are there ever issues with a child getting lost? Would women who cover their faces consider not covering if it would help a child learn valuable communication skills?

I have autism and I find I need to focus on a nose or an eyebrow to appear to be making eye contact sometimes and I really struggle if people are wearing sunglasses or big hats. I also can't gauge reactions very well unless I can see a whole face clearly and it takes me a few meetings to even recognise someone, so it makes me wonder if there's been any research or if any MN Muslims can give some insight into whether this is an issue and what the advice usually is.

[StatelessPrincess]

Most Muslim women don't cover their faces and as the poster above me said we don't cover at home. I've never heard of this being an issue for anyone, I've actually never heard anyone mention it at all in my life.

[Albadross]

I meant for those who do cover their faces, obviously I'm not saying I think everyone does. I've seen many photos of large groups of women all wearing full covering and it just made me wonder.

If they have contact with children who aren't relatives outside the home.

[StatelessPrincess]

Albadross I actually asked my friend who wears niqab about it this morning, she's never heard anyone speak about it either. I imagine it must be an issue for some people, just not anyone I've come across, it's an interesting question, especially as autism seems to be more common (or more commonly diagnosed) these days.

[Albadross]

User I can't stop people in a photo can I

[Albadross]

I'm assuming the first few replies are sarcasm (again I'm not so great with that online) but I work with people with a huge range of disabilities and those who have hearing impairments struggle with beards or anything that obscures even a small part of the face - they never say so to the person with a beard because they don't want to be rude but it's very much not just me. Is that the kind of thing you'd get dispensation for in cultures where niqab etc are more usual? Similar to not fasting when pregnant or breastfeeding or if you're diabetic?

We've only just got to the point where people will entertain the idea of making adjustments for people even in the most diverse cultures and I still come across the notion that if you can't access things as they are then you shouldn't be in that job/uni/social activity, so it's not so far-fetched to ask this.

[Albadross]

@StatelessPrincess do you think autism is less diagnosed amongst families where women wear niqab?

It's tricky because it does affect my interactions to the point where if I'm with a group and someone is wearing dark sunglasses (or worse, those mirrored ones) I'll end up directing all my communication at those who aren't - not intentionally, just because it adds to my anxiety. If someone's only way to understand speech is by lip reading then there's no way they'll be able to communicate if mouths are covered.

[StatelessPrincess]

Albadross I wouldn't have thought the numbers are any different but I honestly haven't a clue. I reckon that in more traditional societies, outside of the UK, many people with impairments like you describe possibly wouldn't be as independant as they can be in the UK. In my (admittedly limited) experience I've found that people with physical impairments that I've come across usually cannot live the way they could in the UK, and would never be expected to, perhaps this applies to less visible impairments too.
I did live in Saudi Arabia for a while, in an area where everyone wore niqab, my social circle was pretty small though, I never heard these kinds of topics talked about.
Most Muslims don't believe that niqab is a religious requirement, even many women that wear it believe it's a great thing to do, but not actually obligatory. When it comes to situations where it might help someone to remove it then I think it would be up to that individual, we don't have a centralised clergy giving us orders. There is no issue showing other females and male children the face anyway, only if it were in a place where adult men or teenage boys could also see.

[Albadross]

Fair enough User - the chances of me asking any stranger, let alone one whose face I couldn't see, are probably close to nil!

I really hope it's not the case that loads of people just live less fulfilled lives like StatelessPrincess said and that others are knowingly allowing that to happen I support choice of course but as you say it's not a requirement to cover the face. The fact that you've never heard it discussed suggests to me that either those with disabilities are not integrated so it's never a thing, or maybe it's only a thing when you know someone close to you with an impairment just as in western cultures. Although there's an extra layer of complexity when there are religious norms attached. My Deaf friends often say there are certain people they just know they won't understand but they never say anything to them - in some ways I wish they would.

[AnxietyForever]

A child who has any form of learning a disability/autism etc would obviously grow up around there family, so if the dad had a beard or mum wore a scarf, covered her face etc the child would be used to this as it would have grown up around this therefor it would know who was who. It would be normal to them.
Just because it's not normal/familiar for you, it doesn't mean it isn't for them. Like you said you use eyebrows etc tho familiarise yourself with people. They may use a particular scarf maybe etc.
I'm a Muslim women who has a large family whom also knows a lot of Muslim people and I think I maybe just know of 1 women who covers her face.
Don't believe the hype in the media.

[StatelessPrincess]

or maybe it's only a thing when you know someone close to you with an impairment just as in western culture I this is probably it. Out of my family and friends I don't know anyone that I'm aware of who has autism, I know one deaf person, he doesn't lip read though, he uses sign language.
I think Anxiety is right too. Normal is not the same for everyone.

[Albadross]

I was thinking more of someone who isn't related - and yes I'm obviously talking about in the UK where you don't see faces covered as much. I'm just wondering whether it would be considered as something you could make an exception for or not.

I think it would make more of a difference for acquired disabilities like hearing impairment where it's more likely to use lip reading instead of sign language.

[Albadross]

Just found something relevant

www.actiononhearingloss.org.uk/community/forums/deafness-and-hearing-loss.aspx?g=posts&t=9162

[StatelessPrincess]

I'm just wondering whether it would be considered as something you could make an exception for or not It would be entirely up to the individual and I imagine it would depend a lot on the circumstances.
I read through the thread you linked too, most of the views expressed on it were pretty awful and offensive.

[Albadross]

They were, unfortunately. All of it applies to any face coverings - I think perhaps it's their perception that people wearing face coverings are putting their religious beliefs above a Deaf person's right to access the world.

I also found this BBC piece:

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/6070754.stm

[Albadross]

And then this article, which is interesting because she actually mentions lip reading but then in the next sentence says that niqab doesn't impair communication without explaining how someone who relies on lip reading would be able to understand her at all. Someone with a hearing impairment has actually commented also asking this but there's no response.

www.theodysseyonline.com/does-niqab-impair-communication

[AnxietyForever]

Individuals whom choose to wear the Niqab, wear it outside of the house. So obviously for a very short period of a time or times. They don't wear it at home around there family.
Why is this bothering you so much???

[StatelessPrincess]

Albadross In the UK at least the percentage of the population who rely on lip reading for communication is very small. The percentage of women who wear niqab is also very small. The circumstances of someone needing a niqab wearing woman to remove it to facilitate lip reading is probably extremely rare. Do you think that women should never wear niqab on the off chance they will encounter someone who needs to lip read?

[fuzzywuzzy]

I've only ever come across a deaf person who requires lip reading once in my life, he was a sales assistant and delighted I could sign thank you.

I don't think my niqab wearing friends have come across hearing impaired people either.

I do have friends who don't wear niqab but do wear hijab and have learned sign language. Altho they've never had occasion to use it. They think it's a good life skill to have (I agree).

[Albadross]

Anxiety it's just a question, like any other question.

I actually know a lot of people who do rely on lip reading so it occurred to me that I had no idea if there was general consensus amongst women who wear niqab - and as I said before I don't mean just in the UK.

I can't ask someone since I don't know anyone who wears it and as I've already said, I don't tend to approach people I don't know unless I absolutely have to anyway. Plus I work from home and I don't interact with anyone aside from family on a daily basis.

This was a genuine question and I posted the links to show that it's not just me wondering, not as views I agree with or to stand against anyone's choice to wear niqab or anything like that. I have Aspergers, so pretty much what I say is what I mean, no hidden meaning, just curious whenever the needs of two different groups seem opposing in some way - I find it fascinating.

[Albadross]

Just checked some stats -

"Of the eight to nine million people in Britain who have a hearing loss around 50,000 to 70,000 use British Sign Language as their preferred method of communication.
Nearly everyone else will rely to some extent on lipreading."
That's quite a lot of people, and bear in mind that you don't always know when you meet someone who is lip reading unless they tell you. Add to that other disabilities like autism and it's more again.

I would hope that people would consider removing it if they were asked to for the sake of someone else being able to understand them (especially in an educational setting) but i guess this was my original question - I hoped maybe there were people here who had experience in places where niqab is popular who might want to explore whether it would be seen as the right thing to do or not.

[OutwiththeOutCrowd]

Albadross, you might be interested in this anecdote from a Guardian reader.

A lady went for a job as a support worker for a child with autism. She had worn non-traditional clothes for the interview but turned up for her first day wearing a niqab. She was told this was unacceptable by the head teacher as the boy had autism and ‘the reading of faces is so crucial to development’. She left the job.

I cannot vouch for the veracity of the reader’s report but it does sound plausible and certainly highlights the issue you have mentioned.

I believe that the current governmental guidelines for an educational setting allow schools to decide on whether their dress code will permit niqabs to be worn or not.

My understanding of the scientific research on body language suggests that niqabs would impair communication. The eye-eye-mouth triangle of the so-called social gaze is partly obscured when a niqab is worn. Faces are wonderfully expressive in conveying meaning. So much of communication is non-verbal.

Even NT people or those without hearing difficulties can find another person harder to understand if only the eyes are on view. Nuances can be lost

Moreover, when wearing a niqab, your smile becomes an underutilised resource. In the wider community here in the UK, there are many people who don’t have the cushion of a family unit and who would appreciate a friendly smile and a nod in the street very much.

As the Persian poet Rumi wrote, ‘I can heal a broken heart with a smile’.

Having said all that, I do not think a blanket ban is necessary or fair.