Advanced search

Welcome to muslim tea room 2.

(1000 Posts)
defuse Mon 30-Dec-13 22:18:47

Peace to you all smile

Ok, well here it is again...we have moved to room 2 now grin

Discuss whatever aspect of islam you like my lovely sisters - this is a place for muslims and non-muslims too, to share experiences, raising kids or just having your say! smile

The kettle is on.... We have loads of herbal teas, coffee and guava juice .... I like guava juice grin so welcome! smile


EmbroideredCloths Tue 31-Dec-13 23:16:11

I breastfed my ds until he was 2.5 yrs. like you, peaceful, I was ready to stop at about 18 months but he wasn't having it. There were a handful of abortive attempts to make him stop, they were traumatic and extremely stressful. They also didn't work. From 18m onwards it was only at night time but I was aware that others thought he was too old for it and felt the subconscious pressure. In the end though I gave up and gave in. Just didn't tell people he was still breast feeding.

At 2.5, one day, he just didn't want it anymore. No tears, no tantrums, unbelievably easy. Made me realise that if you work to your child's timetable instead of artificial external ones, life is just easier all round for everyone.

worldcitizen Tue 31-Dec-13 23:23:48

I know so many cultures where feeding once or twice (early morning and late one before sleeping) until the age of 2.5 or even 3 is absolutely normal.

Still allows for this special closeness and unique body contact and calming and soothing.

crescentmoon Wed 01-Jan-14 09:33:07

embroideredcloths that sounds amazing that he just woke up one day 2.5 years old and didnt want it anymore. id always thought the older they get the harder it is to stop them breastfeeding. its so true about child's timetable rather than artificial external ones. its 9.19 am, DS has been up for 3 hours this morning, and so far not a single wet accident! he's gone to the toilet 4 times - albeit prompted by me! - and mashaallah tabarakallah he's dry otherwise. heres hoping the rest of the day. but its a bloody miracle even this! (hands out sweets and chocolates, brings out tray of baklava).

worldcitizen your work and project sounds fantastic. you say you have muslim parentage were you brought up muslim yourself? peacefuls links are pretty great iv enjoyed reading through them myself. as for

"Then the other 2 are prosecutor (male) and psychotherapist (female) both also Muslim and of Afghan descent.
Strong interest in forced marriage and DV and social work/shelter support net."

things really changed on the crime issues affecting ethnic minorities here in the UK when Nazir afzal was appointed Chief crown prosecutor in the north west, (he is 1 of only 13 across the UK). as part of the 100000 prosecutions he oversees a year he successfully pushed through the prosecution of the Rochdale grooming gang last year (constantly left out of the narrative about the asian grooming gangs was that it was a practising muslim who led the criminal case against them) and also honour crimes cases, forced marriage cases and he also campaigns against fgm. mashaallah he's a pretty cool guy.

crescentmoon Wed 01-Jan-14 09:59:11

oh yes, cant leave out, an asian women's organisation that "
provides a range of advice and support services to enable black and minority women to gain the knowledge and confidence they need to assert their human rights. We provide general and specialist advice on gender-related issues such as domestic violence, sexual violence, forced marriage, honour killings and their intersection with the criminal justice, immigration and asylum systems, health, welfare rights, homelessness and poverty."

theyre based in west london world, hendon is in north west but close enough compared to the others. theyre not a muslim organisation but do alot of work on topics that affect ethnic minority women which includes muslims.

as for milk in tea fuzzy, keep your semi skimmed for everything else but when it comes to tea only evaporated milk. it will make your chai even more luxurious- what other pleasures in this dunya are there for us to imbibe? actually, scratch that, welch's white grape, pear and apple juice is pretty amazing too!

peaceful thats so funny what the hairdresser said! i wonder if anyone else has had that keratin treatment? i had to google it! lucky you found a hairdresser though, i have to trek quite a long way to get to a ladies only one there are none near where i live! i used to have a mobile hairdresser come to my house to do my hair but i cant really afford that anymore. still, the threading and waxing lady, and the henna lady, who i go to more regularly now, are both close by!
i laughed about giving your DH a death stare - but seriously, the reason i decided to try and decrease screentime was because dh kept complaining! one sister posted this video on facebook a short while ago,

and i watched it and felt so bad because i could really see how much i was missing out on with family. i dreaded to think my dc growing up saying they always remembered mama constantly on her phone - facebook, instagram, twitter, GU's comment is free, MN, they were uncomfortably becoming a very strong habit. so i resolved this year im going to try and break my nafs' attachment to those sites. im still going on them on my pc dont get me wrong! but my crappy little functional phone now means i cant walk around the house surfing online as i used to. its been a couple of days and my nafs is very much still hankering, but i thought im your boss your not my boss! (though, when it comes to sugar astaghfirullah its still the boss!).

EmbroideredCloths Wed 01-Jan-14 11:17:19

I'm going to try making the chai with evaporated milk for DH today. He has a sweet tooth and loves sweet milky coffee so I'm thinking spiced chai will go down well.

Sadly I have gestational diabetes and though it's only borderline and diet controlled I'll have to wait til March before I can have some sweet chai myself. confused

worldcitizen Wed 01-Jan-14 12:47:49

Hello everyone,
I wish you all a hopefully wonderful 2014 with lots of happiness, health, and good fortune smile

Yes, the links are awesome and very informative and helpful. I truly appreciate all this help and advice.

And another yes to your question about me being raised Muslim myself. Yes indeed, I have been raised exactly the same way all my cousins and others in my age group have been raised in Europe and the Maghreb.

Me having been signed up by my parents in Christian child-care and primary school wasn't even considered unusual as this has not been uncommon in the Maghreb itself in the 30's, 40's and up.

Also, my strong interest with dialogue and peaceful living with Jews as well, has not been uncommon in my parents's upbringing as this used to be the norm for ages in the Maghreb and also Egypt and various other countries in the Near and Middle East.
So my parents are in their late 60's and early 70's now are of the generation and also the ones who are older than them who find this actually very normal.

I do not wear a headscarf and my mother never has and tons of women, actually over 85% never have and do not.
I also do not pray and do not fast while having (had)normal regular school, uni, and work responsibilities.

My parents didn't want me too,, when I was still a minor. They didn't not want me to be harmed or get repurcussions from a fasting situation which German culture, school responsibilities etc. weren't taking Ramadan into consideration.

I have found my own alternative way with the help of my parents.

I very much look into similarities of all three monotheistic religions. I like the Old testament la lot as the common denominator.

I love, more and more the older I get, the idea of fasting and try to get more into how all these 3 religios fast and why.
So, I actually spread timing (4 times 10 days) across the year and very much include the Catholic fasting time as well by also sitting in the Catholic church to be close to God.

Why Catholic, well the Protestant ones here are not as beautiful and they are very cold and somehow inside I feel a distance. So, I go, where I feel there is a spirit I can feel.
Orthodox churches are also very much what I like.

We also have some (not a lot) few beautiful mosques...and I love it in there.

My parents, but also by my extended family, which also includes a grear-great uncle who was a very great Imam in the famous and very important mosque in Tunis and Uni professor for Islamic Theology, have raised me to look for comfort and look for connection in any other holy and blessed place, if I feel like it.

Oh and I know others who grew up that way and see it nowadays this way as well.

Does that make sense to you?

peacefuloptimist Wed 01-Jan-14 13:38:04

Thank you EmbroideredCloths for your reply. You and worldcitizens are giving me hope that weaning ds off the breast is not going to be as traumatic as I feared.

Wow Crescent that video you posted is kind of scary because its so true. I went to a restaurant once and saw a whole table full of people all taping away on their phones, no one speaking. I thought how odd that phones can make you look so antisocial in such a social environment. I hate the whole selfies craze as well. I have younger relatives who will take pictures of themselves (and get you to take them too) doing silly poses wherever you go out with them and one even took a picture of the packaging of some sweets we had bought together to post on instagram. Are people really interested in such mundane things like that? I think its a generational thing though. But I dont think I will give up my evening time with my laptop though. Its much cheaper than therapy.

World its interesting to read about your upbringing. I know what you mean about enjoying looking for the similarities between the three faiths. I do too. It makes me sad sometimes how many unnecessary conflicts there are between people of the Abrahamic faiths. I mean even if we all held on to our differences there are so many similarities between us that we should be able to get along. The Quran has a beautiful verse in it which addresses this inter religious dialogue.

'Say: Oh People of the Book (i.e. Jews and Christians)! Let us come to common terms between us and you: that we shall worship none but God, and that we shall ascribe no partner unto Him, and that none of us shall take others for lords beside God. And if they turn away, then say: Bear witness that we are they who have surrendered (to God).' Holy Quran, Chapter 3; Verse 64.

Since joining mumsnet and posting on the philosophy and religion thread I have been struck by how similar some of the things the christian mumsnetters say is to our own understanding. Essentially we speak the same language, how could we not when so many of our Prophets are shared. A Rabbi, Priest or Imam would give very similar sermons about the lessons learned from the stories of Abraham, Moses, Noah and Joseph (peace be upon them all). Its sad though that some people (from all three of the faiths) prefer to fixate on differences rather than build on our commonalities. There was a facebook group I saw that was based on this idea from the Quran of coming to a common agreement between different faiths.

worldcitizen Wed 01-Jan-14 14:07:42

Oh that's interestin peaceful.

I am very, very sure to the bottom of my heart, that we humans are not meant to be fighting.

I sometimes ask myself, if this is all a test. I am very serious, it sounds stupid, but I read on here (the first thread) about how important sincereity is.

That was actually very touching. My father always held that up high. he always sais that he felt as a parent and also as his reponsibility not only as a parent, but as a Muslim to raise us to be believers and to wholeheartedly feel from the inside that all our actions are sincere.

He couldn't stand insincerity and the same is also my best friend who is Roman Catholic and a theologist herself and a former nun, who is now a community organiser of a interreligious faith group here.
Her employer is the Catholic university for applied social sciences in Berlin which has attached to it the German Institute of Community organising headed by Professor Leo Penta (an Italian U.S. American who is also a Jesuit priest...)

The funny thing is she leads several groups which are mostly Muslim and also Christian, and 70% are from various African countries and the rest are Turkish.

But all of them are 2nd generation Turkish-Germans and 1st generations Black Africans with their children being born here.

They want to be able to be Muslim and live their faith and teach their children but also be Germans and Europeans and live peacefully together...

It's not impossible, I grew up that way. my parents thought since the 60's it would get better, but instead it just got worse these past years sad

Which is why I will start to speak up and stand up, this is my resolution from 2014 on....and hopefully for many years to follow.

I don't see why I should leave it to others to explain and disseminate their version of islam etc.
And yes, there are lots of Christians and even Jews (also the ones who left Israel to live here) who would love this.

It's not impossible and history proves whe have had this for many, many centuries already.
What's happening on the political front in the past 50 years or so....shouldn't derail what has been wonderful for many centuries before.
I personally do not even think there is that much difference between the three abrahamitic religions.

What I see is more an issue between believers and atheist.

defuse Wed 01-Jan-14 23:34:08

Thank you worldcitizen for reminding me of the sheer importance of sincerity - ikhlas. It is such a crucial part of islam. I must admit, MN has made me realise the extent of the issue between an atheist and a believer, but the verse that is so perfect for the situation is how Allah the most wise says:

To you be your Way, and to me mine. (109:6)

Back to ikhlas.... A very deep and fundamental topic in islam.

The Exalted said:

"And whoever desires the Hereafter and strives for it as it should be strived for while being a believer then his striving will be acknowledged (rewarded)." [Al-Qur'an 17:19]

There are some other useful definitions of ikhlas: (sunnah

It is the freedom of the desire for nearness to Allah from every blemish or impurity;
It is singling out Allah with one's intention in all acts of worship;
It is forgetting the sight of the creation by continual observance of the Creator; and
It is to hide your good deeds just like you would hide your evil deeds.

A great article about sincerity here - a fantastic reminder:

Ok, now to something a bit lighter smile

I breastfed my dd until she was 22 months. I thought i deserved a pat on my back ( where is the ikhlas in that!) until i read about others who have faced bigger challenges and persevered.

Ok, i have a new issue to tackle, dd sucks her thumb and is constantly sucking her thumb. Now her front teeth are beginning to stick out, her thumb looks really sore and her nail is soft and doesnt grow properly. i need this to stop now! I have tried the bitter nail polish thing but she just licks it off and continues sucking. So i was now considering this contraption which is not cheap! If anybody has used it, i would love to hear about how effective it was and whether its worth forking out so much. shock

worldcitizen Wed 01-Jan-14 23:57:18

Hello everyone,

and thanks defuse for more input.

I am sorry, I cannot say anything worthwile about getting rid of thumb-sucking. I do remember though that this used to be one of greatest fears I would have to challenge, but thankfully I was not put into that situation to deal with.

I hope someone will know and have good ideas.

crescentmoon Thu 02-Jan-14 10:37:28

did anyone else notice my typo earlier with grammar spelt as grammer? [groan] i apologise in advance because it certainly wont be the last!

dear worldcitizen, i find your posts so interesting, i really hope you stick around throughout this thread. you being german along with your parents traditions gives a really interesting dimension to discussions about islam in the diaspora. i love what you mentioned about "It's not impossible and history proves whe have had this for many, many centuries already.
What's happening on the political front in the past 50 years or so....shouldn't derail what has been wonderful for many centuries before." for me this is so important, something we need to learn and know for our own conviction and faith, not just for deconstruction and debate/apologetics.

but you'll have already noticed, that we try to keep a mix of topics going, light/heavy/sensitive/easy/religious/non religious, just to make it easy and welcoming for those sisters who might feel they cant/wont come into the tearoom if the topic is constantly on politics for example.

in the group of women im currently saving with we have a few sisters like you world who do not pray, or wear hijab, and maybe do ramadan but not much else. but when it comes to committee - which is our word for this

being practising/non practising as an individual is of less importance than being trustworthy and honest for/with other people in the group. some sisters join because they don't want to take bank loans and pay interest, and some sisters join because they dont earn enough to be able to access bank loans. im less concerned about their reasons for joining or whether the sisters im in a committee with pray/not pray. but im more concerned that they always keep up their payments into the group well after they've collected their money. that even if they enter difficult financial straits they keep the trust of the group - even if it means we eat baked beans for a week until payday just to make sure we dont break that trust. over the last 12 years iv been involved in various ROSCAs, its one of the best ways to know the sincerity and mettle of a person. when there is nothing stronger than a verbal agreement to make sure someone doesnt take their money and run off before the end of the committee term, you want people who have a strong sense of taqwa, or a strong sense of izzah when it comes to the amanah of other peoples money!

worldcitizen Thu 02-Jan-14 18:29:50

no have not noticed any spelling mistakes other than my own blush please don't judge.

Never heard of ROSCA's ever before. Thanks for the link, I will read with interest.

I will try to stay and add something worthwhile. See I have only one child and she is older and I don't remember much of child-rearing difficulties...thank God

But I think I can add to multicultural and multi-lingual family life etc. i hope I can at least smile

peacefuloptimist Fri 03-Jan-14 10:13:27

Just wanted to make you aware of this online seminar tonight.

The Women Scholars in Islam - FREE ONLINE SEMINAR

By Shaykh Dr Mohammad Akram Nadwi

Date: Friday 3rd January 2014 | Time: 7.00pm GMT

Introductory Seminar on History of Female Scholarship in Islam and The Role of Muslim Women in The Society

Discover the hidden legacy of the female scholars of Islam and the role of Muslim women in society throughout history in this amazing online seminar, based on the ground-breaking research and revolutionary findings of Shaykh Dr Mohammed Akram Nadwi on this generally unknown and unexplored area. This seminar is for both men and women and it will help restore balance and understanding between each other in line with the Prophet Muhammad's statement "Women are The Twin Halves of Men".

Brought to you by Cambridge Islamic Sciences Worldwide

Register @

I really like Sheikh Akram Nadwi. His talks are really relevant and engaging. I had to register when I read this;

"God has given girls qualities and potential. If they aren’t allowed to develop them, if they aren’t provided with opportunities to study and learn, it is basically a live burial." - Shaykh Dr Mohammed Akram Nadwi

referencing the pre-Islamic ritual in Arabia of burying baby girls which the Quran outlawed. I totally agree with him.

peacefuloptimist Fri 03-Jan-14 10:46:10

I dont know why but its seems like there has been a deliberate cover up of the history of female scholarship in Islam. Just in the field of hadith sciences alone there have reportedly been over 9000 muslim women scholars who were considered experts in that field. shock Can you imagine! Why dont we know about them?

Defuse I had a look at the thumb guard. It looks so futuristic. Like something out of the Jetsons. But I wonder how comfortable it would be. I dont know how old your daughter is but maybe you could try a reward chart or something with her where you give her a star for not sucking her thumb in a given amount of time i.e. an half an hour, an hour etc. Then reward her when she gets a certain number of stars or goes without doing it for a longer period of time e.g. a day. Just an idea.

fuzzywuzzy Fri 03-Jan-14 12:14:26

People would come from far too learn at the feet of the mother of the believers, of course the bulk of scholarship would be with the women of Islam if you think about it logically, the women of the household were first hand witnesses to the unfolding of Islam, they were a source of comfort and consolation and counsel as well, and they were all very gifted in their own right.

Female scholarship is glossed over because men do not want women to get uppity and start expecting their rights. It's better to keep them uneducated to keep them in their place.

Regarding thumb sucking I grew out of it (eventually), my eldest still sucks her thumb, it gives her comfort so I don't really do anything, the dentist did say she may end up needing braces eventually, but her teeth don't look bad at all Alhumdulillah. She's a very determined thumb sucker tho, when she has henna on her hand she will suck the other thumb! I've tried to put henna on both hands and she then doesn't sleep till she's beyond exhausted.

Someone once told me they put bandages on their little brothers thumb at night when he used to suck his thumb and told him it was a booboo, he eventually stopped sucking his thumb because of that trick.

It wouldn't work with dd as she swaps thumbs.

fuzzywuzzy Fri 03-Jan-14 15:42:08

I accidentally ended up in Jummah today, I've started walking up to the masjid and praying very quickly. However I got the tail end of the Khutbah today and didn't want to rush off so stayed.

The Imam was very eloquent, the end of his Khutbah he said 'Raise your hands when you make Dua, for Allah in his greatness is shy to turn away the suppliant who raises his hands to him in Dua empty handed'.

Happy Jummah (almost over), make Duas in these last minutes as they may contain the moment of acceptance inshallah.

defuse Fri 03-Jan-14 21:24:12

Salaam all,

peaceful i am gutted that i have just seen your message about the seminar. I would have loved to have watched it. Is it still available to watch online? I am shocked to hear that we had 9000 female muslim scholars at one time. Now its hard to find even one. I have a question for a scholar - not necessarily a female one, but dont know how to access one as i am based up North. Most of my info comes from the odd sisters circles that attend and reading books and internet. Because there is quite a bit of detail required for my question (more like an essay!) it would be so much easier to talk to one rather than write it all out because i will no. Doubt leave some aspect out - unless anyone is aware of forum type of scholar q&a where they can leave any further questions fir you and you can add any further info before you get a fatwa.

Thanks to peaceful and fuzzy for your advice on thumb sucking. I wouldnt have been too bothered had dd's teeth not already been looking the way they are and she isnt even 3 yet! I will try the reward chart, but i doubt she will co-operate. Dont really want to pay out so much for that thumb guard, but have seen a type of glove for the thumb so might pay £16 and and try that first. I just know dd will be awfully upset with the thumbguard but might not be too upset with the glove thingy.

peacefuloptimist Sat 04-Jan-14 01:43:35

Salams all

Embroidered I just re-read what you wrote and realised your expecting. Congratulations thanks How has your pregnancy been? Gestational diabetes must be really tough to deal with. It was a big fear of mine that I would get that because diabetes runs in my family so I used to always be slightly nervous when they would measure my sugar levels. I hope the rest of your pregnancy goes smoothly and your labour is stress-free. Wasnt Gosh expecting too? Does anyone know if she has given birth yet?

Defuse, it was absolutely brilliant! It started at 7 and lasted for just over an hour. Im not sure if its online still but I hope they put it up because Sheikh Akram Nadwi was amazing. grin There were so many incredible things he said that it really boggles the mind that this is not known more widely in the muslim world but as Fuzzy said there are some people who prefer women to be unaware of this great history as it makes them easier to control. Fuzzy its not just the Mothers of the believers there were sooooo many more female scholars. In the end I just had to grab a pen and paper and write some of the names down and some of their great achievements. I thought I would share some of it with you.

Well first we cant start mentioning female scholars without mentioning Aisha RA who narrated 2,210 and in the six books of hadith, she narrates the most hadith after Abu Hurayrah RA. After the death of the Prophet Muhammed PBUH she became a point of reference for the muslim community. Abu Musa al Ashari said "Whenever any matter became difficult for us, the Companions of the Prophet PBUH, then we asked Aisha about it and we found she had knowledge of that".

Other famous women companions who related many hadith were Umm Salamah RA (378 hadith); Asma bint Yazid RA (81 hadith), Maymunah, umm al muminin RA who narrated 76; Hafsah, umm al muminin RA who narrated 60 and Asma bint Umays RA (60 hadith). In fact he said 25% of the hadith are narrated purely from women and the other 75% are narrated from a mixture of men and women (i.e. women and men both narrated those hadith). He even mentioned how the hadith narrated by women would take precedence over mens in many cases. For example for the sunnah salah before dhuhr that was disputed between the men (who narrated the prophet PBUH prayed 2 rakats before dhuhr) and the wives of the Prophet Muhammed PBUH (who said he prayed 4 before dhuhr). He said in the hanafi madhab they take the opinion of the wives of the Prophet Muhammed PBUH because he used to pray sunnah at home so they would be better informed.

In the generation after the companions of the Prophet Muhammed PBUH you also had some great female scholars. Amrah bint Abdul Rahman studied under Aisha RA and the great caliph (caliph means ruler) Umar Ibn AbdulAziz said about her 'No one is now living who has more knowledge of the hadith of Aisha than Amrah' and he would seek her counsel! Another male student of hers said 'I came to her and I found her an ocean of knowledge, its water never goes'. Hafsa bint Sireen was also one of the most famous scholars of hadeeth of that time. When Hassan al Basari and Ibn Sireen were mentioned in front of Iyaas bin Muaawiyah (a famous judge if that time), he openly stated that in his opinion, no one surpassed Hafsa bint Sireen.

Another famous female scholar from that period was from Syria and her name was Umm al Darda. She would spend 6 months teaching in Damascus in the Ummayad Mosque and then 6 months teaching in Jerusalem in Masjid al Aqsa - the third holiest mosque in Islam. Imagine some men think women shouldnt even come to the mosque and here you have a woman teaching in the 3rd holiest mosque. He mentioned others who taught in the mosques in Makkah and Madinah so the 1st and 2nd holiest mosques too and in both cases they taught men and women. There was one he mentioned as well (cant remember her name now) who was selected and paid by the ruler of Syria to be the primary hadith teacher in an educational institution in Damascus (cant remember exactly the name). So anyone going there would have to go to her to learn hadith and she was paid to do the job.

He also gave examples of women scholars from non-Arab backgrounds. For example Fatima bint Abu Ali al Hasan and Aisha bint Hasan ibn Ibrahim from Iran who were both famous teachers in their times. Even in Herat, Afghanistan there was a famous female scholar called Biba bint Abdul Samad who it was said about her 'the people who learnt hadith from her cannot be counted'. Also an African woman called Abida was an expert in relating hadith. She married Walid al Dahoon al Andalusi who took her to live in Spain with him where she narrated over 10,000 hadith of Imam Malik bin Anas and several other Madani scholars and she became the source of the spread of the Prophet’s (PBUH) teachings in Europe.

A really famous one as well was Karimah bint Ahmad al Marwaziyyah who was originally from Turkmenistan but travelled to Jerusalem, Isfahan, then finally Makkah in pursuit of her studies. She was considered to be the expert of Sahih Bukhari in her time and many people would travel from far and wide to listen to her teach in Masjid al Haram in Makkah. He said she is considered to have made the best copy of Sahih Bukhari (she would not allow her students to buy copies of the book and instead would make them copy the hadith from her copy and then she would check it with them that they had copied it correctly before allowing them to learn from her) and most of the ones we have today rely on her version written centuries ago because the chain of narration between her and Bukhari was very short. One of the most outstanding figures in the history of hadith was Fatimah bint Abdillah al Juzdaniyyah who also taught in Isfahan. She had many many students who went on to be famous scholars in their own right including Fatimah Bint Sa'ad who first came to learn from her when she was 4, then came back when she was 10-11 and finally when she was 16. Her father took Fatimah from China to Isfahan to learn hadith, then to Baghdad and she finally settled in Egypt and it was said that the hadith sciences had declined in Cairo until she got there and revived it again. Amatullah bint AbdulGhani from India was also another famous scholar. She used to teach in Madinah and in fact had the authority to award ijazahs to men who studied hadith from her.

I know this is a major overload but I just wanted to share because this is something we dont hear about often. I have barely scratched the surface of what he mentioned. There is a great book called 'Al Muhaddithhat - the women scholars in Islam' written by Akram Nadwi which has more information on this topic. Dr Farhat Hashimi (a contemporary famous female scholar from Pakistan) has written an article on this topic too here

Somebody asked a question about what caused the decline in female scholarship. He gave a really interesting answer. He said that when the study of Greek Philosophy became popular female scholarship went down (in fact there are no muslim female scholars of Greek Philosophy listed). He said this was because they were influenced by the ideas of Aristotle (who was one of the most influential misogynists you can think of) who didnt put much worth in to teaching women or on women as human beings at all so they didnt either. He said whenever hadith sciences became popular then you would see an increase in female scholarship again because there was more respect for women whilst the study of Greek philosophy caused men to despise women and look down on them.

Another really interesting thing he said was that there are 100s of men who are known to have fabricated hadith but there is not one women who is known to have fabricated hadith.

Did anyone else manage to watch it?

worldcitizen Sat 04-Jan-14 10:48:24

Wow peaceful it's amazing how much you know!!!! So amazing and interesting.

Will read with pleasue and great interest smile


peacefuloptimist Sat 04-Jan-14 12:24:29

I dont know anything worldcitizen. Im just repeating what I heard yesterday in that online seminar and (whispers) I have the book by Sheikh Akram Nadwi. But to my shame I didnt read it until yesterday when I needed to remind myself of the names and achievements of the female scholars before posting blush.

UmmSHI Sat 04-Jan-14 13:19:19

That all sounds so interesting peaceful. I wish I had caught the lecture yesterday as well. Is there a book of the lecture then? If so could you link it please, or whichever book you are talking about. JazakhAllah khair, what you have posted is so informative.

crescentmoon Sat 04-Jan-14 13:48:55

just also wanted to say thanks peaceful for the info. thanks so so much. i tuned in at the beginning of the talk and there were a couple of hundred people in the online seminar room when i had to sign out. i didnt get to hear those parts you mentioned but the sheikh began with a hadith about a man whose daughter came to him and he told her to sit on the floor. and then his son came to him and he held his son up on his shoulder (showing preference for sons over daughters). and the prophet (pbuh) was sitting with him and he rebuked the man saying 'you must treat your children equally'. i remembered countless little things like that my dad would do growing up and i thought if i didnt hear anything else after this at least i got to hear that!

theres the word whitewash, i wonder what word is used to describe the erasing of women's contribution to islamic scholarship? manwash? is it by ignorance or deliberate? Allah knows we have very few learned people man or woman anyway, but i cannot help but think, if there were such luminaries that their contributions were so widespread and great then the omissions must be... systematic? may God forgive them and forgive us.

im reading comments about thumb sucking with interest. but defuse that device thing is way too expensive love. consider it when she's a teen not now poor girl. my eldest is a thumb sucker too but only when he thinks no one is looking. definitely he's learned its uncool for school though - and in front of in laws too - they take the piss out of him mercilessly when he sucks his thumb in front of them! for that reason alone - tell me more about the £16 glove thingamajiggy!

i was so close to going to jumaa prayer yesterday fuzzy, usually im very grateful its not an obligation on women to attend as it is to men. for various disappointments reasons i wont go into hear. but yesterday, i really felt a yearning to attend the jumaa. im going to nurture that feeling through this week and attend next week inshaallah.

as for the committee thing, i usually save with them because im crap at saving money by myself! if i break a 5 pound note, whether its 4 pounds left or 50p left its gone - if its only for my sake i find it hard to watch the pennies. but i feel much more organised when in a group and with a social purpose as well.
say world, ummshi, cloth, defuse, peaceful, fuzzy, butterfly decide to start a ROSCA between themselves. you all decide to put £100 side each month for a term of 7 months (as theres 7 of you). each of your £100 together makes a lump sum of £700 to give to one of your group.

then between yourselves you work out when each of you needs the money. based on all having the same trustworthy rating (otherwise, NEW people take their money towards the end), say fuzzy's washing machine is on the brink, so she says can i have it the first month i need to get a new washing machine and other stuff. then peaceful says im moving house this £700 would help for the deposit, can i have it the second month. world says something like 'im not bothered about the first few months but can i get mine in June as im going on holiday then'. ummshi 'my MOT is up in August, can i get it that month so in case car needs some money spent, il have the money ready'. and so on... , the ones who need credit take it earlier in the 7 months, the ones who want to save take their lump sum later in the term.

grin - (actually, im repeating the conversations we've recently had in the group im in!).

the benefit is that instead of 7 of you each individually taking 7 months to save £700 each, and that money sitting at home in a piggy bank or a jar doing nothing or at risk of getting raided by the small crises that come up now and then. by doing a ROSCA most in the group will get that lump sum earlier for a 'big spend'. iv been in 'committees' where each person only puts in £50 a month - some women its the small amount left over from their house money that they can afford to put in. or the child benefit money etc. and the pot is only a few hundred, to ones where each person puts in £500/£1000 a month, and the lump sum is much more substantial. and it completely avoids riba/interest, because the glue is trust.

worldcitizen Sat 04-Jan-14 15:05:19

This ROSCA sounds really lie it makes sense. I actually would save as I feel I Need to do it as I am not only answering to myself but to the other group members as well.
So, beside us being able to Access a larger sum at once without interest and hassle and embarrassment, it actually helps me saving as well.

Again, never heard of this before. It sort of creates a bond as well and gives a feeling of being supported and also the wonderful feeling of helping others in return as well.

Very empowering

crescentmoon Sat 04-Jan-14 19:02:59

you might not have heard of it but im sure your parents maybe have, its something that the older generations brought with them and some of the younger generation are carrying on with. though in the UK convert anglo muslims - iv seen a group in my city - are now doing committee also

"It sort of creates a bond as well and gives a feeling of being supported and also the wonderful feeling of helping others in return as well."

yup, those are totally the reasons i stick with it till now! it suits a certain type of personality, theres the type of person that would rather save on their own. but theres actually lots of ways to buy interest free in the UK, google interest free furniture and you'll find you can buy sofas etc from DFS, laura ashley who offer 0% interest deals. can buy now pay later 0% from argos for electronics and other household goods eg fridges/tumbledriers. theres even interest free car finance now...
(theyre a non muslim company but are also marketing to the muslim market as sharia compliant). but for all those you need good credit rating/and or salary, so it might be out of the reach for some low income sisters who havent accessed or built up a credit history. or, sometimes the sofa or car you want to buy is from a smaller company that cant afford to do buy now pay later/interest free, and needs payment/cash up front. so committee/ROSCA helps for such situations too.

so then, the 7 months finish, and you all decide to do another term together, and say 'lets see if we can find some other sisters willing to join'. then i get to hear and ask world if i can join in, then world vouches for me with the others that im reliable yadiya, then the term extends to 8 months, and the lump sum is £800 per month. then, just before we begin, defuse says 'sisters i have a friend whose in a pickle and needs to borrow some money, can she join with us and take the first month her boiler needs fixing. il take the last month so'. and then maybe peaceful will bring along her cousin, says 'she'll definitely keep up the payments etc' and make that the tenth person, then the group is 10 strong, the pot is £1000, and we say 'lets do 10 months'. and it carries on, and grows each time, the longest iv been in a committee is 20 months - 20 people. i didnt know more than 2 people in that particular one, but i knew the sister leading it and trusted and left it to her. but as i was new in that one - got in through my mum - i think i had to wait until month 16 to collect our lump sum. but had i been saving that amount on my own, 100 things would have popped up to constantly eat away at it so id not have had the same amount after 16 months as by saving in a ROSCA. so alhamdullillah its always been a source of good for me.

worldcitizen Sat 04-Jan-14 20:22:38

Wonderful!!!! I am seeing my mother tomorrow, I'll ask her about it.

This thread is not accepting new messages.