Advanced search


(1000 Posts)
Januarymadness Wed 24-Apr-13 21:05:41

Right I am going to bite. I shouldnt have looked at the facebook but I did.

Mr Ruggles you have made some horrible accusations. You have claimed everyone who disagreed with you was an atheist who lacked logic and reasoning. You were wrong on ALL counts. Many people told you they were Christian or Theists, they just didn't agree with you. The thread was also full of valid scientific arguments which were well worded and full of logic and reasoning.

You have also accused us all of being bullies. Something I saw no evidence of. Not agreeing with someone is not bullying.

So please do feel free to justify your off board comments here as speaking behind peoples backs is really not on.

Please could someone link to the old thread. Thanks

Jewcy Fri 10-May-13 22:40:51

The one thing I won't do is just accept something without at least some understanding of it. Obviously I don't understand everything, so those things which still allude me remain in the 'to do' compartment!

Pedro, I will readily admit that my faith is largely based on what I feel in my heart as opposed to a purely academic understanding of God and his Word (not that I think that is at all possible anyway).

I am currently ploughing through Alister E McGrath's The Christian Theology Reader and I am seriously saddened at my lack of understanding even of some of the (supposedly) simpler concepts. For instance, I am trying to expand my knowledge about original sin, but when I look at this book I am faced with the ideas of Ambrosiaster, Donne, Edwards, feminist approaches, Luther, Origen and Tertullian - not to mention Pelagius's rejection of it! (Mind you, I think Pelagius is an arse, especially after reading about his version of grace).

What am I supposed to think? Who is right? All I can do is keep referring back to the bible and praying for some enlightenment. This has worked for me previously (but I am still in the dark regarding other stuff despite praying about it).

Sorry for waffling.

infamouspoo Fri 10-May-13 22:42:14

'Original sin' is a christian invention. Its not in the Torah. Maybe you should go back to what you call Genesis?

infamouspoo Fri 10-May-13 22:43:17

I'm still waiting for how Christians are not affected by epigenetics. I know what that term means but I'm wondering if the writer did. Cant be arsed to scroll back and see who said it.

Jewcy Fri 10-May-13 22:43:34

But why should I have to ask for enlightenment if god's will is for me to have it. Can't he just send it on over?

I heard a really beautiful answer to this when I shouted something similar out in church during one of my riots. But I was too drunk to remember what it was now sad

daftdame Fri 10-May-13 22:43:40

BestValue Hi! very kind, but you know I can't claim the good stuff as my own grin

Pedro God wants to be asked because He won't force revelation upon you. As I say you have free will.

Anyone who does not know the Truth can be deceived by Satan. You can lose free will if you become enough of a slave to sin.

daftdame Fri 10-May-13 22:46:04

Epigenetics, genetics, my take but fits. One of the connections that came to me.

Jewcy Fri 10-May-13 22:48:05

Wow! I don't think I can ever catch up. We're up to 894 messages. I spent about 8 hours on here yesterday and there's so much more to respond to today

BestValue, respond to this: Pedro thanked me for something <proud>

infamouspoo Fri 10-May-13 22:49:04

no please, explain yourself. You cant just bandy words about without explaining what you mean.
Did you mean Christians are affected by genetic diseases? Because a, thats crap and b, thats not what epigenetocs mean.
Or Christians arent affected by genetics. Cos thats wrong too.
I'm curious.

infamouspoo Fri 10-May-13 22:49:30


PedroYoniLikesCrisps Fri 10-May-13 22:49:38

Pedro God wants to be asked because He won't force revelation upon you. As I say you have free will.

Ok, so I want the revelation. Why should I have to pray for it? If he's as good as you say, he not only can read my thoughts but I've just written it down here too. Enlighten me oh mighty one.

Anyone who does not know the Truth can be deceived by Satan.

Which truth? Says who? And I still haven't been deceived by Satan so I'm ok.

You can lose free will if you become enough of a slave to sin.

What if I want to sin?

infamouspoo Fri 10-May-13 22:49:57

my typing is going skewy. Its late

PedroYoniLikesCrisps Fri 10-May-13 22:52:31

Pedro thanked me for something <proud>

Hey look, if you explain something well to me, I'll let you know I appreciate it. I'm not the shithead you might have thought I was!

It means a lot to me that it it makes you proud smile

BackOnlyBriefly Fri 10-May-13 22:54:03

So Satan can take away your free will before you even got around to finding out that he and god even exist. But if you need free will to ask god for help then you are stuck aren't you.

daftdame Fri 10-May-13 22:56:48

infamous OT inheritance right, very close to what we have discovered about genetics.

Complete redemption though Christ is like the possibility of the genetic state being altered as in Epigenetics. As I have said this is just something that came to me in thought, a connection that occurred to me. The discovery of Epigenetics is relatively new.

daftdame Fri 10-May-13 23:00:33

back it's good that everyone gets opportunity to repent isn't it?Do so before it is too late! Before you are completely deceived.

BackOnlyBriefly Fri 10-May-13 23:13:19

Ah, but it was already too late by the time I heard about god. This reminds me of the earlier Microsoft Terms & Conditions. They used to say "If you unseal this package you have agreed to the T&Cs" but the T&Cs were inside the package smile

Jewcy Sat 11-May-13 00:25:24

I have decided I will never understand Kant. Am I missing anything?

Januarymadness Sat 11-May-13 00:37:50

I go on 1 night out and have 200 posts to catch up on? I may be some time.........

Jewcy Sat 11-May-13 00:48:24

Hands up anyone who thinks punishing someone's kids, grandchildren and great-grandchildren is good.

Bob, whilst reading I found this by Tertullian on inherited guilt:

But if the blessing of the fathers was destined to be transmitted to their posterity, without any merit on their part, why should not the guilt of the fathers be passed on to their sons, so that the transgression as well as the grace should spread through the whole human race? (Except for the point, which was to be made known later, that men shall not say, "The fathers have eaten a sour grape and the children's teeth have been set on edge" (Jeremiah 31:29) that is, the father shall not take upon himself the transgression of his son, nor the son the transgression of his father, but each shall be guilty of their own transgression.).

This means that after the hardness of the people and the hardness of the law had been overcome, God's justice should then judge individuals and not the whole race. If you would receive the gospel of truth you would discover to whom that saying refers which speaks of bringing home to the sons the transgressions of their fathers. It applies to all those who of their own accord applied to themselves the saying: "may his blood be on our heads and on the heads of our sons" (Matthew 27:25). That is why the providence of God, having already heard this, established it [i.e' the gospel of truth] for them.

Yikes. Sorry that was long.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Sat 11-May-13 01:00:41

I'm not I can hear any argument, theological or otherwise that would make me think that the sins of the fathers should be meted out on their children.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Sat 11-May-13 01:01:45

* I'm not sure I can hear any argument...

Jewcy Sat 11-May-13 01:32:29

Sabrina, how do you view disinheritance? Is it ever okay?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Sat 11-May-13 01:38:01

disinheritance - as in the parents say 'you will not inherit my worldly goods' and write them out if the will? and leave it all to Battersea Dogs Home as my dh's grandfather did

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Sat 11-May-13 01:38:58


typos because of tiredness!

BestValue Sat 11-May-13 07:14:46

Hey everyone, I'm really enjoying this discussion. Not sure what I can add now that it has turned more theological in nature. And I'm afraid to go back and respond to some of the comments directed at me for fear of throwing off the flow.

I want to say that I am agreeing with pretty much everything Daft says. I appreciate your humble nature, Daft, and you are giving me a lot to think about. (eg. I never thought about losing your free will as a slave to sin but that makes total sense.)

I'm also agreeing with much of what Jewcy says (although not always her means of saying it). But I do appreciate your passion, Jewcy. That bit about the Trinity (i.e. 'water, wine and honey' was pure gold.) Did you come up with that yourself? I'm going to use that in the future. I always just used the three forms of H20 - water, ice, steam.

I thank you for your nice comments. You asked how I stay calm and I can only echo Daft when I say that it is not under my own power that I do these things but by the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

I fully expect to see that this thread has come to an end when I wake up tomorrow. Hopefully, if someone wants to start a new one and the moderators will link it to the first two, we can continue this. The theological and philosophical stuff seems to be of more interest to most of you than the young-earth topic any way which I'm cool with. I just might not have as much to contribute but I always have much to learn.

In case this really has ended and no one starts a new thread, I will simply bid you all adieu, wish you good luck and, with the best of intentions, say God bless you. And thanks to Pedro for starting what grew to be a pretty awesome thread. (Does anybody know if we've set some kind of MumsNet record? That would be sweet.)

Love you all! smile

This thread is not accepting new messages.