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(1000 Posts)
Januarymadness Wed 24-Apr-13 21:05:41

Right I am going to bite. I shouldnt have looked at the facebook but I did.

Mr Ruggles you have made some horrible accusations. You have claimed everyone who disagreed with you was an atheist who lacked logic and reasoning. You were wrong on ALL counts. Many people told you they were Christian or Theists, they just didn't agree with you. The thread was also full of valid scientific arguments which were well worded and full of logic and reasoning.

You have also accused us all of being bullies. Something I saw no evidence of. Not agreeing with someone is not bullying.

So please do feel free to justify your off board comments here as speaking behind peoples backs is really not on.

Please could someone link to the old thread. Thanks

sieglinde Sun 28-Apr-13 10:36:19

Ellie, meet you halfway...? Kill, beat up and jump on the lie, but NOT the liar.

IsletsOfLangerhans Sun 28-Apr-13 11:14:47

Ellie, my comments were directed more to the 'tinfoil hat wearing nutjob' comment made in this thread. I can't remember any specifically insulting comments made against best in the old thread, just general annoyance and frustration at the patronising tone. And yes it was from multiple voices, but that is not bullying, just mass-disagreement. If you are going to put yourself out there with ideas you can't back-up, you need to expect a certain amount of stick. best was quite snippy and rude to people he felt weren't eloquent enough to argue with him (or slapped down his arguments quickly).

The more I read and hear about the YECs, though, I get the impression they want to be perceived as being persecuted by 'arrogant' scientists and will twist anything we say to make this appear so. I urge anyone who hasn't yet watched the video link (Dawkins and Wendy Wright) Ellie posted above in the thread to do so. A massive eye opener.

Januarymadness Sun 28-Apr-13 12:22:06

Ellie most people were engaging in an adult robust conversation. Best WAS being rude to people. HOWEVER when someone is referred to as a tin-foil hat wearing nut job, that IS a personal attack. It undermines the proper argument. Lets face it Best is not the only person in the world to hold these views and the only way to really make people see the light is putting up the rational scientific argument, not resorting to name calling.

sieglinde Sun 28-Apr-13 12:37:36

Exactly, january. I think we should take the high ground because we belong there.

Emmamumsy Sun 28-Apr-13 19:42:54

Viewing this as an outsider who didn't participate in the first thread and has nothing invested in the creationism-evolution debate, I didn't think best was rude to anyone at all. The comment he made to Pedro about making a valid point was clearly in jest and it appeared that Pedro took it as such. When Pedro shot back a quip of his own, best smiled and sincerely congratulated him.

Maybe it's because I don't really care about this issue but I see the thread going totally different from the way most of you do. He was patient, tolerant, and respectful. He never used profanity to get his point across. He seemed to know what he was talking about. He always provided evidence for his point of view. He got a little frustrated at times, like we all do, but he never lost his cool like those attacking him did. And he said he wasn't trying to change anyone's mind, just seeking a little understanding. It's unfortunate that he didn't find it here.

Having said all that, maybe I'm just a sucker for an under dog. I just hope that if any of your children grow up to be Christians or young earth creationists you certainly won't treat them the way you treated best.

IsletsOfLangerhans Sun 28-Apr-13 21:09:52

I'm sorry to disagree with you emma, but he came across as very patronising to me. He may have appeared to be providing evidence, but a lot of it was nonsense or discredited. When people tried to point him into the direction of evidence against his views, he ignored us. How is that respectful?

Emmamumsy Mon 29-Apr-13 00:06:45

I never saw that happen. On the contrary, I saw him providing evidence and people refusing to look at it because it was on YouTube or came from a creationist website.

I also recall someone calling him "fucking stupid" and someone else calling him the "dumbest person on the planet." He never stooped to that level.

Mind you, I'm one of those live-and-let live atheists. I'm not as angry about it as some are. Many of my friends and family members are Christians but I don't think any of them are YEC. I was curious to see why he believed that and intrigued that he was providing scientific evidence and not just telling us "ye must have faith."

All in all, I think he was behaving like a good Christian should. I certainly wouldn't want my kids taught YEC in school but if I remember correctly he even spoke out against that too. Only to have someone criticize him and pick a fight over it. I say praise him for what he does right, challenge those ideas you think are wrong but
always give him the freedom to make his case and the respect to do so without being ridiculed and belittled.

SolidGoldBrass Mon 29-Apr-13 00:55:09

When people are peddling dangerous bullshit, I think it's good to mock and belittle them. Because, basically, people who actually peddle this sort of thing are not very nice. Not only are they stupid, but there's usually a whole lot of unpleasant other baggage attached to this sort of delusion, and if you poke the piggy with a stick hard enough, you get to see its true colours. In this piggy's case it seems to have been 'running off to have a little whine and a moan on its own blog' but usually, push them hard enough and you'll get some lovely racism or misogyny or some other piece of complete self-discrediting.

Sunnywithshowers Mon 29-Apr-13 01:42:59

I'm a live and let live atheist Emma, and sometimes I thought Best was incredibly patronising. The first time I pulled him up on it he apologised, the second time he completely ignored me. I'm not angry, thank you.

Interestingly, Pedro started the thread, but in the end Best refused to speak with Pedro. Which isn't actually very nice.

Emmamumsy Mon 29-Apr-13 06:28:49

But, Solid, Christians think atheism is "dangerous bullshit." Best could have gone on about how atheists have killed millions of people or how they have no morals or how they are all going to burn in hell like some Christians do. But best never did that. He just wanted to make a rational case for his beliefs and I think he did an admirable job of it. He took the high road.

And Sunny, best never refused to talk to Pedro. I read the entire thread. He just asked her to be respectful. The last thing he said to her was "God loves you." Some people might interpret that as patronising but to a Christian that is a very kind and loving thing to say. Also, you acknowledge that he apologised to you yet no one ever apologised to him.

I didn't intend to take his side like this because I don't believe in any of the things he said but there is a quote I love by Voltaire that goes, "I disagree with what you say but I'll defend to the death your right to say it." Atheists who agree with this statement should learn to practise it more often.

Januarymadness Mon 29-Apr-13 10:18:21

So you think calling people liars, telling Pedro she will continue to lead a sad and lonely life, saying one poster was the onle one capable of rational thought and inftellectually up to the job of debating with him, is ok is it? Thats the higher ground?

Thats not even mentioning the stuff said off board or calling valid arguments irrelevant side issues because he couldn't put up a viable argument. Or claiming he was an official expert on everything.

That was all rude. But poking with a stick is not the way forward. By doing that you bring up the victim mindset and close him, his suporters and the neutral observer off from engaging. So pretty counter productive.

AgeofReason Mon 29-Apr-13 10:41:48

Hello folks! I was a huge fan of the previous thread, but I kept silent throughout. Not so much this time, not that anyone around here actually needs any help. A few quick things about me: I'm an atheist, a lover of science (evolution most assuredly included), and I'm from the same town as Best (yes, we have met in person on several occasions).

That said, we spoke very recently and it seems he'll be returning soon! I've already had a preview of his first post... I'm not going to spill the beans, suffice it to say that it's sure to generate discussion. Cheers!

infamouspoo Mon 29-Apr-13 10:54:04

I just found him full of words. He didnt know enough about the roots of his own beliefs - the hebrew Torah - and when pulled up on a few points, points he based his whole YE stuff on, was unable to answer.

sieglinde Mon 29-Apr-13 11:35:51

SGB opined Not only are they stupid, but there's usually a whole lot of unpleasant other baggage attached to this sort of delusion, and if you poke the piggy with a stick hard enough, you get to see its true colours.

I see that you think it's good, but that doesn't make it good, and your generalisations are both wrong and offensive.

Poke me as much as you like; I seriously doubt you will find me racist or misogynist. Then again, I could assume you only meant creationists. Of whom I am not one.

LizzyDay Mon 29-Apr-13 11:54:37

Hi AgeOfReason, welcome to the debate.

I think to characterise Best as a poor wounded underdog is to misunderstand him. Going by the Google results, he's a relentless self-publicist who thrives on peddling his 'theories' to anyone who will listen.

He's a skilled writer and debater - unfortunately he seems to mainly use his skills to mislead those gullible enough to believe him.

Januarymadness Mon 29-Apr-13 12:52:55

Hello Age welcome.

madhairday Mon 29-Apr-13 14:49:59

The thread certainly educated me further. I kept quiet in the main, because science is very much not my area, but Ellie's posts and others have been helpful for me. I'm a little blush because I think very early in the thread I defended Best, saying he argued with intelligence etc (shows how little I really do know) grin - I think I was just taken aback to see a YEC argue their case with so much back up 'evidence' and not simply 'because the bible says so' even though it does not

I'll be continuing to read, with interest. I have never been a YEC despite being a Christian, I think I am in the majority of Christians on this. The little I know about evolution etc makes the best sense and does not contradict the notion of God as creator (to me).

Had a look at the fb page shock nice.

BestValue Mon 29-Apr-13 18:42:37

Okay, I'm back - with a few rules before I agree to participate. But first, some announcements.

Thanks to Emma for having my back on this thread. I love that Voltaire quote too, Emma (although it isn't clear that Voltaire actually said it). It is one of my life's guiding principles - along with, "Do unto others as you would be done by."

Before coming back, I did some research perusing several other similar threads on Mumsnet. Many of you have been doing this for a very long time - sucking in creationists and theists so you can ridicule them. (I would think you could find something better to do with your time.)

Here are a few of the gems I found:

Cotedazur: "Carbon dating shows irrefutably that [fossils] are millions of years old."

LOL! Cote obviously knows little about carbon dating.

NobleGiraffe: "Jodie you must accept that there is a logical link between YEC and intolerance of homosexuality."

A false - not to mention bigoted - thing to say.

SolidGoldBrass: "FFS! Anyone who actually believes in creationism is too stupid to be let out of the house without a keeper."

Witty perhaps but highly offensive.

SolidGoldBrass: " 'Don't be fucking ridiculous, I have better things to do with my time' is a perfectly adequate answer." (In response to being asked to go to church.)

A good example of the worst atheism has to offer humanity.

EllieArroway: "There are no good reasons to believe in any god, not a single one. And when you have no reason to believe that something is true then that belief becomes, by definition, unreasonable."

How closed mind of you. And you say you'd like to discuss my evidences for the existence God? I think I'll save my breath for someone who is interested in learning.

And finally, this astute observation by a poster who could have said it to many of the posters on the first thread:

LRDTheFeministDragon: "You are interested in insulting religious people and advancing no argument."

Good one, LRD.

Now, with that out of my system, on to my rules.


Near the end of the first thread I was spending several hours per day on Mumsnet. I cannot continue at that pace so I will have to be much more selective about who I respond to and what questions I answer. Thus:

1. No profanity in a message directed at me will be tolerated. Your entire post will go unresponded to and you will be immediately reported to the moderator.

2. No name calling or personal attacks will be tolerated. Your entire post will go unresponded to and, depending upon the severity of the offense, you may be reported to the moderator.

3. I will not respond to any allegations of lying or of misrepresentation on FaceBook. Suffice it to say that after someone visited my FaceBook page, they ran back to Mumsnet claiming I called you all a bunch of "insane mummies." I neither used the word "insane" nor mentioned that you were mothers - or even women for that matter.

I did say that your behaviour confirmed for me that people are "inherently evil." All Christians believe this so it should not be news to you.

4. I will not respond to questions previously addressed on the first thread (like the speed of light issue).

5. I cannot respond multiple times to the same questions when someone new joins the discussion. I will simply write something like "See the thread above."

6. I will not, in general, respond to questions that I deem to be off the topic of young earth creationism. If you have an unrelated question, please feel free to send me a private message.

7. If I provide evidence as requested and you refuse to read it, view it or listen to it, I will not respond to any further questions from you until you demonstrate that you have done so.

8. If I find out that you are messaging my FaceBook friends to harass them (as someone has done to one of atheist friends) I will report you to the moderator and possibly to the police.

9. Let's keep the discussion civil, rational and logical. Feel free to challenge my views and question my evidence. But please keep in mind my three primary assumptions:

1. God exists.
2. He has revealed information to us about His creation in the Bible.
3. The Bible can be understood through a plain reading of the text.

10. I have taken into consideration the comments that some of you felt I was patronizing and rude. Once again, if I offended anyone I deeply apologize. I will try to do better on this thread (and have no doubt that I can if everyone adheres to the first 9 rules.)

I assure you I was not claiming persecution because of your "rational arguments" but because of your poor conduct. Be respectful. Mind your Ps and Qs and we won't have a problem. Let's have a productive discussion. smile

P.S. I tried to post this last night but Mumsnet was down.

BestValue Mon 29-Apr-13 18:58:04

Hi Age. Thanks for joining the discussion. You know it's going to be really tough for me not to call you by your real name. wink

Age and I have a healthy mutual respect. Although our disagreements can get heated at times, we never allow them to descend into name calling etc. and I can truly say I love this guy. (Oops! Girl. Uh, woman. Wait. What do you want to be known as, Age?) wink

(That's two winks in one post. People are going to start to talk about us. Love ya, buddy.)

LizzyDay Mon 29-Apr-13 19:04:41

I have to hand it to you Best, you really are good value. I'm just gutted that I namechange too often for you to have found anything in my murky MN past for you to disapprove of. But you have cheered me up no end anyway, ta.

BestValue Mon 29-Apr-13 19:23:25

Regarding shameless self-promotion, I don't get paid for anything I do. When someone on the first thread asked the name of my book I said,

"I didn't mention it, NG. I'm not here to promote myself or to sell books. I want to answer honest questions from nice people who are genuinely interested in learning."

I live a very modest lifestyle. I've never owed a car. I rent my apartment. My clothes and books are all second hand. I used to volunteer to produce and host a local TV show talking with university professors about the big questions of life. It took up a lot of my free time and I didn't get paid for it but those are the types of conversations I like to have. I try to live my life according to the way Jesus taught us to. Of course I fail sometimes because I am a sinner (as we all are).

My FaceBook profile says, "If you're not learning, you're not living" - a phrase I believe I coined and firmly believe in.

No one writes to make money as it is not a very good way to get rich. They do it to communicate ideas they are passionate about. I have always said that the biggest compliment I could ever receive is when someone says, "You know, I never thought about it like that before." That's worth more to me than all the money in the world.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Mon 29-Apr-13 19:31:30

Best, Mumsnet HQ dictates the rules of engagement on Mumsnet. Not you. You can check out their posting guidelines if you're unsure.

You may not be aware of this, but it is considered extremely bad form to quote posters from other threads. Those posters are not (as yet) present on this thread to answer you.

LizzyDay Mon 29-Apr-13 19:31:37

Best - Well, I didn't actually suggest that you had got rich on the profits...

BestValue Mon 29-Apr-13 19:35:20

"Best, Mumsnet HQ dictates the rules of engagement on Mumsnet. Not you. You can check out their posting guidelines if you're unsure."

Doesn't matter. These are MY rules. I'm just saying don't expect a response if you swear at me.

"Best - Well, I didn't actually suggest that you had got rich on the profits..."

I figured as much but I just wanted to make my position clear.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Mon 29-Apr-13 19:43:35

I'm just saying don't expect a response if you swear at me.

I'll live with it.

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