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The Muslim Tearoom

(1000 Posts)
HardlyEverHoovers Wed 20-Mar-13 15:25:06

Salaams/peace to all! I'm already missing our old thread, so taking the bull by the horns and opening our very own Muslim Tearoom, all welcome (non-Muslims too of course), to chat, share, ask questions etc etc. Imagine a cosy cafe with floor cushions, tea and coffee of all kinds, and lovely cakes! Please join me!

Sweetsandchocolate Mon 13-May-13 22:02:48

Salaam all. The wedding went really well. I put my foot down and took the pram, it was brilliant for changing his nappies (and clothes when he pooed all over his little outfits twice!) and meant he had a little kick around when everyone was eating. As for bf, I took a large prayer scarf, went to a chair by a wall and asked for help from relatives to cover me up so I could lift my entire salwar kameez up. Difficult but managed. Helped that the hall was informally segregated. Overall, a success and I had a good time. Thank you for all your support, it really helped thanks smile

crescentmoon Wed 15-May-13 08:09:54

That sounds great chocolate really glad that worked for you. Great your in laws helped too- mashaallah. I love going to weddings it's lovely to be invited to share in the happiness and positivity of that special day. All of my friends my age have gotten married now, ditto my siblings friends. but the younger cousins and siblings are getting married so there's a new generation of weddings to go to now too! It helps that with invitations it's always to '... And family.'

Iv had a funny dilemma these days sisters. I think my colleagues must think im a weirdo as one of them lives very close to me and keeps offering me lifts home but I keep making excuses that I'm alrite by bus. Even though the lift would get me home half hour earlier to my family- and even when the rain is pouring down. If it was a female colleague This would have been my second month of lifts and id have budgeted petrol money into my weekly spending! But it's a male colleague and I just can't shrug off that 'what would people think if they saw me' mentality. Its only started in the last few weeks. Another colleague offers 'at least let me drop u off at the bus stop' and I'm like no no don't worry thank you.i feel so sheepish seeing them drive past and waving as im walking the long route to my stop. but i would prefer the 10min walk than to take the lift and have someone see and speculate about DH's wife like that. think that's where my cultural upbringing comes out more than my religious upbringing. Anyway I think they'll get the hint soon and stop offering- it's more out of politeness now on both sides anyway. But I wonder what other sisters would do.
For me another thing is it took a while to get DH on board about my working- it became an issue after dc2 and he was just like 'why bother yourself what do you need from it?'.. So even though its a small thing I wouldn't like him to feel the subject of even a little speculation of his wife - me- being seen taking lifts from men. But looking out at this horrible rainy weather I think I'm at reason no . 675 why I need to learn to drive. When I get to reason no. 750 I think il finally do it then!

crescentmoon Wed 15-May-13 08:35:44

another thing come up recently, i wonder how you would have answered?

dc2 asked me does Allah have eyes? i said to her 'no, Allah doesnt need eyes to see'. does Allah have ears, i said to her 'no, Allah doesnt need ears to hear', does Allah have hands, i said 'no Allah doesnt need hands to make'....

and i left it with her as what my dad used to answer me 'does the shoemaker need to look like the shoe?'

but she asked DH the same questions and he said 'yes but not eyes like us' 'yes but not ears like us' 'yes but not hands like us' and we had a conversation afterwards and it was interesting because of how we had the concept of Allah in our heads. in my head its only the letters of the word Allah alif lam ha. but DH had a different concept based on the words 'the whole dominion is in His hand'.

what say you?

nailak Wed 15-May-13 11:51:25

I agree with you on the aqeedah thing, Allah is not like us, He cannot have body parts as he is without direction, and without need.

As for the lift, it really comes down to the boundaries between you and your DH that are personal to your relationship. for me some people i may say yes and some no, based on dhs experiences of me and my behaviour and what i feel could cause issues in my relationship. i might even just ask his opinion on the issue although generally i make my own decisions about what is appropriate.

although it may be diff coz i know my dh would not entertain rumours about me.

crescentmoon Thu 16-May-13 08:34:36

Salams naila! Very true about boundaries iv seen Muslim couples same level of religiosity where the lift thing wouldn't necessarily be an issue. It's more of a cultural thing than a Religious reservation.

Lady Ayesha faced down the whole city of Madinah including her husband Muhammad (pbuh) during the 'slander against her'. When she became lost for 3 days in the desert and a man found her and helped her back to Madinah. the whole city had searched for her and when they saw her ride in on camel with the man seated behind her they told Muhammad(pbuh) 'your wife has betrayed you'. i was always struck by how, even when she was vindicated by the revelation of verse verse four in surah nur, she still said 'if it was you I would have been guilty'. In other situations for other sisters I always think and cite that event and the collection of verses about those situations. But for my own situation. until marriage I used to think I was totally uncultural but now I think maybe I'm 60per cent religious 40 per cent cultural- the latter part a mixture of parents culture and the culture I grew up in.DH is maybe 20 per cent now but it rears its head unexpectedly sometimes. I call him prickly like a hedgehog for how he gets sometimes! He's far far less uptight about things than he used to be when we first got together so he's loosened up about so much compared to what his family expected. And compared to both our fathers he's completely different - he doesn't expect anything from me he wouldn't do himself. He goes to men only swimming while I go to female only, he goes- when he finds one- to a male only gym- as I go to female only gyms and classes. And that was my boundary that what he expected of me he had to do himself and he's always tended to that - if he can't find it he doesn't go.

Interesting about Allah not having direction iv never thought of that or heard it that way.

(As for the case about those men from Oxford- it's open season right now isn't it. Reading those threads yday and today iv thought about that Martin Niemoller poem And got to thinking about the increase in anti disabled/ anti benefits/ anti Eastern European/ anti traveller/ anti Christian threads and what it meant for us. Not that there weren't such threads like yesterday's two before- naila you and me have been on a fair few. But that in general, the opinions aimed at those groups shocked me and filled me with foreboding about 'If society can't have rahma/ adl for those groups then what emotion are we going to argue for'? I don't have the energy to get involved - I should have got involved on those other threads before 'they came for me' long before it got to this. but Allah forgive me I don't have the time and didnt know what to say).

crescentmoon Thu 16-May-13 08:38:26

(*i didn't have the time then and didnt know what to say on those 'anti.....' Threads about other groups)

Lost really hope baby is well- I will be joining u in a few months. I found the quran verses about great feeding tipped the balance for me when considering formula over b/f - though I couldn't go as long as 2 years!

HardlyEverHoovers Fri 17-May-13 16:24:43

Salaam everyone, I've been away for a while and just had a quick look at the thread to find there have been lots of interesting discussions I need to catch up, and also lots of new names on here. Look forward to joining in again!

crescentmoon Fri 17-May-13 19:04:04

smile Salam alaikum! welcome back hardly - I fear I keep killing your thread! glad your back to keep it going! Peace, mercy and blessings sisters.

Cuddledup Sun 19-May-13 08:13:30

Crescent re: the Oxford case - there was an interesting discussion about this case / problem on BBC R.4 Sunday programme this morning. If you listen on iPlayer the discussion was the last item on the prog.

On a separate matter - this books looks wonderful

Hope you're all well. X

nailak Sun 19-May-13 22:09:11

some people chat so much rubbish is unbelievable, crescent u did well to hide the threads!

crescentmoon Sun 19-May-13 23:18:51

Lol I hid the threads naila but it only works when I log in. Iv been on slow burn all week trying to avoid mumsnet. Its serious topics but the angle taken makes you want to batten down the hatches and go into siege mode. Every time I think I have reconciled myself to hypocrisy something sets it off. Anyway I broke and joined in!

* Cuddledup thanks I listened to that show you mentioned on iplayer. I think i agreed more with Bukhari - to me the vast majority of Pakistani men are honourable so I wouldnt even shift this to be about their ethnic community. you can legislate either legally or morally over and over but if someone has a sickness in their heart then it will come out. But the minimum of Islam is if you cannot do good for yourself, or if you cannot help but act in a way to destroy yourself, at least do not harm others.

Allah may forgive you the former but not the latter.

nailak Tue 21-May-13 19:47:37

yummytummy Tue 21-May-13 19:51:32

salaam everyone so lovely to see this on mn. hope i can join in and maybe slightly hijack thread if ok?

atm i am in a very difficult situation with my marriage my husband has been very violent towards me on several occasions and is constantly verbally abusive and nasty it is getting worse and dont know how much more i can take. police were called most recently and he was taken away but now back home.

i have told parents and inlaws and we have tried the one person from each side thing it hasnt worked. he has essentially become very very abusive and isnt likely tochange. unfortunately for me it isnt a case of just 'ltb' as there are a million cultural barriers in place and if i try to leave with kids i will be practically forced back to him. its a horrendous way to live and i know islamically he shouldnt treat a wife this way.

also my inlaws have threatened me with trying to take my kids if i try and leave and parents will disown me so if i go i will be totally alone

also my parents are convinced i should just try to be a better wife and please him etc etc but they cant see there isnt really a reason he is doing this he is just plain nasty and knows he can get away with it as all the greater family think he is the most wonderful creature on the planet yet once the door is closed at home he is horrific.

would anyone have advice from an islamic or cultural angle? i dont want to break up the family but at the same time i cant live like this

Cuddledup Tue 21-May-13 21:10:21

Yummy I'm really v v sorry to hear about the abuse you are suffering. I'm not a Muslim so I can't offer you any real advice but I did a Google search and found this info. (You may have this info already)

Muslim Women's Helpline - 020 8904 8193 / 020 8908 6715

The Muslim Women’s Helpline aims to provide any Muslim girl or woman in a crisis with a free, confidential listening service and referral to Islamic consultants, plus practical help and information where required.

Also this

I'm posting because I didn't want you to feel as if no one was listening to you. I'm sure a sister will be along soon and post some useful advice for you - in the meantime take care. .

In friendship

yummytummy Tue 21-May-13 21:12:51

thankyou cuddlesup thats very kind of you to search for me. i have some of the numbers but its always helpful to get more.

thanks for replying x

nailak Tue 21-May-13 21:40:17

from an islamic angle

it is a fardh on those who are oppressed to work to remove themselves from the oppression.

Allah is with the oppressed.

As a mother it is your fardh to ensure the emotional, moral and phsyical upbringing of your children and provide them a secure and stable environment.

Sabr is an active thing, patient perseverance. It doesnt mean be patient and do nothing.

Sis if you are ready to leave him then inbox me. National Zakat foundation have 2 womans refuges, I have a contact who has housed people I have refered to him before. I can give you his details or him your details.

Also you wont be alone, you will be able to slowly make a support network of sisters around you. inshaAllah.

Nour Domestic Violence and Amirah foundation are other organisations which may also be able to give you support and advice.

crescentmoon Wed 22-May-13 08:33:59

salams dear yummy i second everything cuddledup and naila said.

forget your parents and your inlaws think of your kids. do you wish your daughter to come to you in 20 years and tell you she is putting up with the same kind of shit from her husband because she saw her mother and feels she has no right to ask more? or that if her saintly mother put up with it even if your daughter feels bad/ suicidal and that she cant cope she also musnt leave? like you feel tied down so you cant leave? or the other risk that she will put up with emotional/verbal/financial abuse because her expectations are so low of men that if he's not beating her its the best she can hope for. or that she might swear off marriage and men completely as some sisters do?

what about your son? even if he doesnt go onto be an abuser my dad is in his 60s and still feels that anger at his father for beating the crap out of their mother all through his childhood. in him it left feelings of impotence, anger, weakness - they all felt craven, coward for not sticking up for her and hated themselves for being grateful he wasnt beating them. all things he's opened up about for why he didnt ever want us his children to ever see him hit our mother. not for her sake but for his children's sake. your children maycarry those same feelings and hatred of themselves that my dad has an old man - no matter how much you try to reassure them.

would you like your daughters in law to come and tell you that your sons are beating them, because they didnt know any different and if their mother stayed with their father why shouldnt their wives remain? that even if it was bad its still okk because their mother dealt with it so they should too.

yours is a jihad - you have to prioritise your kids over husband, parents, inlaws. not by remaining with a wife beater but by breaking the link and bringing up your children away from violence and the threat of violence. this is definitely a case of where divorce is better for the children to see than continuation of that marriage. our communities are so damaged and traumatised that this is normalised for our parents generation. but not for ours, and it should not be for our children.

you know women at the time of the prophet (pbuh) used to initiate divorce over things that elders now would rail against as being a bad woman. but they would go to Muhammad (pbuh) and he would grant them their divorce over 'not being attracted to him', 'not liking him', 'not getting along'. its there in hadith literature - iv posted before in the other thread. then women in the 21st century are remonstrated with for wanting to leave abusive marriages. instead of the man being pressured to battle his nafs/self/ego and anger issues you are told to try harder. but your children will be traumatised i know you think not to break up the family but it will break something inside of them if it has not already. please my dear love dont get to another ramadan being married to this man. start gathering reserves, advice, courage, ignore any small feeling of sympathy or mercy for this man, you need to be hard headed not soft hearted my dear yummytummy.

LostAndNeverFound Thu 23-May-13 03:29:48

Salaam yummy, I hope you're well. Please please listen to what these ladies are saying, they speak such wise words. I second everything crescent has said. You cannot stay with this man, I'm sad for you and hope you find some strength from within to leave. Regardless of religion this is no way to live, you don't deserve it. No one does. There's always woman's aid as well. Please keep us updated and carry on posting on here for some support. We're all here for you.

Does anyone want a 6 week old for the day?! I seem to have the most demanding baby who won't let me put him down even for a second in the day, he cries a lot and it's wearing me down. My two girls weren't like this! I feel like I'm neglecting my two dd's. My 3 year old is sleeping at my mother in laws tonight cause she is lacking attention here and every time we leave her house she begs to stay sad. I know this will pass but it's getting harder not easier! And we've now got 6 weeks to pack up and move and not got anywhere to live still.

Enough of my ramblings. Hope you're all well, and yummy please take the excellent advice you've been given, and keep us updated.

yummytummy Thu 23-May-13 10:04:23

salaam all thanks for support and advice.

i have been in touch with womens aid and other local organisations and seen solicitors etc. i have all the info am just scared to act on it and i have to build myself up to be strong enough to deal with the fallout.

this weekend i am planning to talk to him last time and see if he will agree to leave voluntarily. he may do as he is i think still shaken fron the recent arrest and doesnt want anything to impact on his job which is very respected. if he doesnt agree then i will have to do the occupation orders etc but want to avoid that if possible

am still scared to even talk though and have arranged the talk out of house so he cant do anything.

just want to avoid having to end up taking kids to a refuge etc esp as house is jointly owned so dont want to leave it. it is his dutyto provide financially for kids if we are together or not and he knows that. also he has the means to do so and more.

nailak Thu 23-May-13 11:59:16

May ALlah make it easy for u sis thanks

LostAndNeverFound Thu 23-May-13 14:35:19

I'm going to read dua for you sister yummy.

Good luck x

crescentmoon Thu 23-May-13 15:02:10

clever yummy mashaallah. make sure he is still unsettled because of the recent police involvement. wallahi i feel so sorry for sisters in places where people dont want to know or get involved in dv - unless she has big brothers or cousins willing to get involved and threaten the dh then she is really on her own. here the police take that role instead. i went to a talk last year where thesheikh was actively encouraging women to go to the police about dv rather than let it be dealt with privately. there was pin drop silence in the room though it had a 200 plus audience. along the line of this initiative here...

(which is about all forms of abuse not just physical abuse)

i also really make dua for you that you dont give up the house and that your DH goes instead. the days when they thought you should just be grateful you got to leave with the divorce paper alone are over. this is maybe another reason why its good to have a civil marriage as well as the nikah marriage too.

Italiangreyhound Thu 23-May-13 21:46:00

Yummytummy I'm not a Muslim, I'm a Christian. I just looked on this thread and I read your story. I wanted to say how sorry I am to hear this is happening and hope you will take your wise sisters' advice, and that I wish and your dear children all the very best in this terribly difficult situation. No woman should have to live in fear, nor her children either. I hope you will not have to and will be able to live in peace. Thinking of you, will say a prayer for you.

HardlyEverHoovers Fri 24-May-13 16:25:41

yummytummy I read your post, you've been given fantastic advice by the sisters on here, I'll make dua for you inshAllah.

Having trouble keeping up with the thread as never seem to get a chance to sit down at the computer anymore, so sorry if I'm repeating anything but:

Did anyone see this report?

Quite a few people I know were involved in it. It touches on some issues that we discussed on the last thread, about non-white converts recieving different treatment from white converts from the rest of the Muslim community.

Also, I had an email this morning from one of our local mosques, passing on a message from the police about potential revence attacks due to the horrific incident this week. They encouraged people to report ANYTHING even minor, as they are expecting a backlash so thought I would pass that on.

Alhamdulillah the nearest thing I've had to that sort of thing was someone shouting 'get that bloody curtain off your head' out of a car window. Funnily enough I was feeling a bit curtain-like that day, bad hijab day! InshAllah none of us will be subject to anything more sinister.

MareeeyaDoloures Fri 24-May-13 20:08:33

yummy, the older family members will want to avoid the public shame of police, court, social services, divorce etc. I wonder whether it might help if your actions were presented as the only way of avoiding all this.

"Mum, we're going to try 'a discreet separation', 'living apart so the neighbours won't keep reporting the screams', 'stopping the school from informing social services', 'A&E and the GP say they're going to take action' 'I'm scared the dc will go into care with non-Muslims' etc"

[bear in mind I'm Catholic rather than Muslim, we have no divorce ever, whatever the circumstances, so the taboo on marriage breakdown is huge]

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